Accelerating Value
Accelerating Value

Episode · 9 months ago

The Art & Science of RevOps

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

There is an age-old issue in the revenue functions of every business…

Sales, Marketing and Service are all quick to blame each other when something goes wrong.

How do you finally get alignment between these key components in your business?

According to today’s guest, Alisa Goldschmidt, Senior Revenue Operations Manager at Harver, one of the best ways is through RevOps — and she joins the show to share why.

Join us as we discuss:

  • The value of having each revenue function under one umbrella 
  • How to measure success across these departments
  • How RevOps makes life easier for the C-suite

Keep connected with Accelerating Value on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.  

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Today, every budget approval is an investment deal. If you're a marketer, sales or business leader, you had to promise to deliver value and impact. Writing the wave to get there is hard enough. Finding your way through the storm is even harder if you're looking for that path forward so that you don't wipe out. You've come to the right place. Let's get into the show and we're back. Hey everybody, this is markstus with accelerating value, your weekly podcast where we delve deeply into how different people have approached value creation in their careers, how they identify the opportunities to create value, how they figure out how to invest in those opportunities. I'm talking about not in the markets, okay, I'm talking about in your career, in your company. How do you create forward movement? How do you create value? How do you create a business case and then demonstrate that you met that business case? So that's what we are all about, and it appears that it's really popular, because there's a like seventyzero people that listen to this podcast now on a regular basis. So we really appreciate that very, very much. Today we have a really cool guest and I'm going to define this in two different ways. Right. One is I've talked to her twice and I think she's got a lot of great things to say. But also it's been challenging for the two of us to get together in the same place at the same time and actually do this show. So you know, when you when you kind of think about it in terms of the effort required and the quality of the person on the show, this is going to be great, right. You just don't you don't have to like struggle so much for crap. You struggle for great stuff. So Alisa Goldschmidt is is in revops, but her journey into revops is is kind of the interesting part of the story. And so, Alisa, welcome accelerating value. Thank you so much. I'm thrilled to be here. Glad you're here too. It's kind of one of those things where both you and I are half of our enjoyment is just the fact that we made it here pretty much yes, all right, considering that we didn't physically have to go anywhere to get together, that's even more absolutely okay. All right, so tell us a little bit, a little bit about yourself, introduce yourself and and kind of I think. I think kind of the way I would focus it here is context. Give them the professional context for who why you are who you are today. Okay, so, as you mentioned, I am in revenue operations. But for those of you that are not familiar maybe with revenue operations, I'd like to define it as the backbone to the Revenue Organization, that if I'm doing my job right, then all the people, processes and technologies that enable revenue are working well. It's a very high level. That's sort of a high level explanation the way I got here. So my background has always been, until about two three years ago, in B Tob Marketing. I've pretty much always worked in the text space, a space. More recently and throughout that journey, as marketing continue to evolve over the last several years, more and more technology platforms, you know, marketing, automation, email platforms. I mean they just the that whole space. I'm exploded. So as part of my job in marketing, I was responsible...

...for using and managing those platforms. It was not a separate job, it was just what I needed to do to get my job done. But I also work in fairly small companies and because I was often the one that understood and could use those platforms really well. A lot of the other revenue related tech and processes fell on my lap too, and you know over the previous you know several years I started kind of is getting burned out on the marketing side of it, but I've always really enjoyed the tech and just again, as that space exploded, I was finding other ways to to apply that knowledge. So a couple of years ago I pivoted and focused full on revenue operations and it was a really great fit for me because sort of the standard definition at various company company, but standard definition of revenue operations is includes sales operations, marketing operations and customer success operations. Those are the functions that create and contribute to revenue and I already had a lot of sales operations and marketing operations experience because of my roles, and so it was a really natural way for me to pivot and continue to grow my career. So that's how I got here. I think from a personal standpoint, I think I just timed it well because revenue operations as a function just over the last two years has really taken off and which was exciting for me and so I was able to again use I mean I've had many years of experience that I could apply, and I think also my marketing background helps, because I've always worked with sales, I've been involved in filling the pipeline. So I have a very revenue focused perspective, and so that kind of helps me as well. I'd say. The other thing is that to be successful and why I enjoy and I'm a successful at revops is the relationship building. So again, that's so my the fact that I understand the revenue process, the fact that I've worked with marketers and sales people on customer success allows me to build their relationships and help them succeed. So okay, so I think that is actually a perfect tea for my free person and that is I mean, value is value is created in lots of different ways, but if you were to talk to most business leaders, they would say that it all comes down to cash in some form, right, and so let's just let's just kind of go with that for a second. I'm not ignoring the complexities of that statement, I'm just seeking a simplified version of the conversation. So you're now the point of the sphere at establishing the existence of value. Yes, okay, I could say that's correct. Yeah, and you're certainly facilitating others and their journey of creating that value and all that kind of stuff. Right. So there's an op side, there's an analytic side to this, right. And so you're now you're also a you've been a marketer in the past, and by that I mean in this case, kind of like a traditional technology marketer, right, the man Jin all that. You know writing. So you're very fat. You're very familiar with the fact that many business leaders don't see clear line of sight between marketing and value and you also you really understand, which a lot of rev ops people don't really understand, that it's not just a renaming of sales ops, but it's the combination of sales ops, marketing ops and customer success ops, adding minimum those three. So why do you think it is or where's the struggle here in terms of connecting marketing to sales impact and business value creation? And I'm going to kind of I want you to kind of look at...

...this through both ends of the telescope, so to speak. Right, so kind of the way you think it is from a marker's perspective, fair or not, right or wrong? Right, we're and and then the same thing from the other side, from the business leader side, but from the revop side. I'd actually like to take a third perspective of checks. Absolutely that's great and I you know, I kind of look at it when I explain the value of rebops, I actually look at it from the prospect to customer perspective. So that kind of look at it even higher. And I've address those other ones. But I think we've all experienced, either in a be to be, you know, in a professional role, or and as a consumer, situations where the process drops offer you. Let's say the company does great marketing, you get involved, you buy something, it's a great expirit, you know, you get to the site. Let me back up. They do great marketing, you get to the site or you set up a call with the demo and that first call you have, you know, you're like, it's like they didn't even spend any time getting to know who you are. They didn't do any due diligence, they didn't you know, and you're like, I don't feel valuable, I didn't like you know, and then maybe they would. They say, okay, well, we're going to pass you off to somebody else and then it takes another three weeks pass about. You know, it's just the whole sis process is broken and you're going from feeling like, oh, this is really cool product and a really cool company and I want to learn more, to like I shouldn't have to try this hard to buy something, like don't they want my money? So that's one. Now let's just say that that process actually works. I. Let's say your marketed to you, they gain your interest, you do sales call, they do a great job, you sign it and then you get passed them. Now you're a customer and you feel like you're forgotten and you never hear from anybody. You try to get help. You know all those things. So you know, the way I look at it is the the jump from marketing to sales and sales to customer success. There's two really big ledges, precipices, I'm not sure what, but you know places where the process often can fall off. So the value to the company is because you're if everything is connected. In theory, the customer should have a good experience all the way along. There should not be any dropping off. The information should fall you know, obviously there's things with individual people, because people are humans, and you know there's things that happen, but if the processes follow and you you have handoff and expectations and Saas and all all the details, in theory, it should it should work. So that's sort of the the high level that I feel like if you silo all those marketing operation, sales ops, customer success ups, if they are not working together and if they are not viewed across the board as revenue, you know, if they're viewed as marketings over here and all they do is spend money and you know sales is bringing in money and customers success, you know, if they do the job, they keep the money. That's sort of how people look at it. But if they're not connected, you know they're all going to fail at one point or another. So you know. So I'll that's one way I look at is just and which I think companies should look at because Itally yeah, so we actually have a customer proof that is looking at measures of customer experience and then they've measured pretty much every part of their business that touches customers and then they're running multivariable linear aggression to establish the relationships across time and space and which pieces is impact certain parts of that chronology that you're talking about at different times the most right? which ones have the biggest impact at this time versus that time? Right, and it and it's very, very interesting and and...

...you're absolutely right. It it all hangs together, or were it hangs separately, as vision Benjamin Franklin d yeah, and then, you know, to your earlier question, you know, from the marketing side and having been on that say you know, traditionally sales, you know there's always a lot to talk about sales and marketing alignment. But you know, traditionally I've seen this change, but traditionally, you know, marketing does all this activity that bring in demand, you know, create demand, bring in prospects, drive interest, educate the marketplace and and with all the technology and information about that you can get, you know, it's you can get even more intelligent about that. So marketing spending all this time and energy and money and from their perspective, they generate the leads and they go over to sales and nothing happens and the loop is not closed. So even if there are good, good prospects that get pushed over marketing never knows about it and marketing doesn't get the attribution that you know they should have. I mean, I'm you know, if marketing is spending all this money to bring in and fill the pipeline, they should be able to also show the their contribution to revenue. I mean too certain and and that's a not that's sort of a gray area. But like if you can say we spent this much and we generated this many qualified leads that sales followed up on, you know that that's a that's a pretty good you can't get super granular because there's so many other variables, but that's at least one way to show it. And I think if there isn't that connection, you can't show that. Also, sales can always say you know, again, if there's not a connection and things aren't being tripped, sales can say, oh, they never give us any prospects, you know. So there's two right now. When you when you work through this problem as a revolts leader, you know you're kind of like the player coach right because you're you're sitting there and you're doing stuff, but you're also saying to marketing or to sales or to customer experience customer success. Hey, you need to like do this stuff a little better than you're currently doing it right so that we can show and connect the dots that you were just talking about. How do you? How are you actually having those conversations right now? How do you? How do you kind of carry the water to to a group and say, you know, you're doing a lot of good work, not impeaching the work, but really struggling to show your value here. So you know, a couple different things. One is is, like I said, having those conversations and building the relationships. So, you know, going to marketing and sink. So what kind of gut programs are you doing? What have you seen purely from you know, qualified lead, from marketing qualifiedly, you know what is worked. And then why doesn't you? Why do you think that sales isn't seeing that? And then I hiably would go to sales and say, you know what what are? What are your gripes, you know whatever with these things. I feel like having those conversations and the relationships is the first step and then going Oh, okay, well, within the systems, you know, if we added this information to the marketing campaign that goes through to sales force or whatever. We're creating that connection in the system so that then you can build reports and you can and see see things. So a lot of times that's I mean, I don't want to say that's all there is, but I mean a lot of times it's just a matter of the correct information isn't being trapped and maybe the wrong information is being trapped and is useless to everybody. Or maybe we did that three years ago and we've never just stopped and said that doesn't work anymore. You know, they're all those kinds of things. So I think it's identifying the the points along the process that are important to both sides and then making sure that there is a connection, again, not just you know and somebody's head. I mean it has to be trapped, it has to be you know, in our case we use hub spotons and and sales force, but whatever system you use, that there is a way that both sides can see. And then that's also about...

...having accountability and sort of when to use publicize it. I mean Dashboards, like whatever your company does. You know that everybody can see. So everybody he can see. You Know How many qualified leads are generated by marketing everybody can see how many of those turned into opportunities, things like that. I mean, so everybody. It's not just silo that marketing is tracking it, but everybody is seeing and I think that's important too because again, and especially, I would say especially on sales teams and even down to the individual rep level, you know, they obviously get very focused on their territory. They're putting in the in the AL and they'll say whole marketing hasn't done anything for me, and so if you can't show it, then you can't say yes, they have. For one of the one of the things that a CFO said to me not too long ago was that, and we were talking briefly. This was not a podcast, this was a different kind of conversation, but we're Tome about rebops and REV ops. In his company, Pretty Large Company, reports up into finance and he looks at Rev ops as the honest broker between marketing, sales and other parts of the equation and that you guys are the Umpires, you're the referees, you're establishing the rules of the game, how you score points, all that kind of stuff, and clearly finance in the business has some input into this as do the functions. But at the end of the day, right, you know, just like in a football game or any other professional support or college court, you know, you guys are the ones that decide who wins and who loses on in any given situation. Where do you think? So what I thought when I heard that was, yes, I totally agree with that statement, but that is a very mature vision. I was just good at yeah, right. Where do you think rev ops is in terms of getting to that in many companies? Right, we're so let's just you know, let's just say it's like, you know, zero to ten. Right, kind of scale? Where do you think a lot of revops teams are, their companies for that matter? Right, because revops doesn't happen in a bubble. I would say, and I'm basing this on a lot of the conversations I see within various rev up communities I'm part of, on a scale of one to ten, I'd say maybe five to six. Mean, I think obviously various company to company. I think there are companies, like we mentioned the beginning, that simply renamed sales opster of UPS, and it's not a rev ups philosophy. It's not nobody taught. You know, everybody still silod like that's then you've got some companies that are like starting to embrace it, but it's still seen as truly operational and not a strategic function. And there's somewhere in the middle, I would say, when it's just clarify so that everyone stays tracking with you here. So what do you mean by that? I think is that a lot of people still see REV OPS as an enabling function when it is also a score keeping or analytics function. I would say score keeping and but also best or, you know, core. I mean you mentioned this a little earlier, like rev ops should also set strategy and because of the insights they have, Rev ops should be involved, you know, in in the go to market strategy and things like that, because if it truly is across the organization and and is impacting revenue the entire way, it needs to be part of those conversations. So when I say strategic, yes, there is a ton of tactical parts of this job. I mean I'm not going to lot, but but ultimately revops should be part of those, you know, leadership, revenue leadership conversations, because also revops is the one that has all the information...

...and the data and can say, you know, they can, they can put together forecast, they can put together, you know, long term planning and we've got access to all of that or we know how to collect it, things like that. So I think the goal of the function overall is to be strategic but have parts of it that were managing the tactical. So my organization I report to a VP OF REV OPS, which is wonderful because that's sort of where people wanted to be, and he reports to the crow. So That's within most of the of ups community. That's sort of the standard, the gold standard of what you want to be. So I feel fortunate about that, because it is seen as important enough and strategic enough to have VP level person in a function. I don't think that's the case in a lot of organizations. I think it's it's under the director sales, or so I assume, then that MOPS, marketing operations reports up into the CRO as well, with a dotted line to marketing or something like that. Well, I mean again, so if it's a revops function, so you can have a revops function have in that function people that responsible for, you know, mops and sales ups and custom, you know, depending how your organization but that. But then, but they'd have a dotted line to marketing. They report up through the crow and they've got a line to marketing. They you know. So you know that person is marketings. Yeah, right, connection to revenue. Right, sort of. So, actually, right. One of the things about this, and this kind of goes straight to your point about strategy, when you know a lot of companies right now, for example, or in their planning cycle for for the next year, maybe getting kind of close to the end of the planning cycle. Yeah, we're doing that right now. Yeah, and and so you know there's a business case that's being formulated for go to market, right, and how we're going to split the money between not just marketing and sales and and customer success organizationally, but in terms of demand, actual new license revenue and then renewals. Okay, so do you feel like that you guys are kind of leading the charge on establishing the business case for that split and then kind of how it's going to be governed going forward? Or how does that actually playing out? And is that is that kind of a lynch pin? Is that kind of where things are either kind of at that for five, six level or they're at eight, nine and two. That's what I was going to say, and I think I mean my organization. This is this is fairly new because of a recent acquisition. So you know the fact that we have a VP is a result of the acquisition and things like that. So I think honestly, like in my con situation that's being formulated, I say, you know, we definitely are part of the you know, revops is definitely part of the revenue leadership team. They're part of the conversations. I think, because there's the broader view of the whole you know, that that whole continuum. I do think that we provide value on the strategy side, so for go to market, you know, because ops is at that level of conversations. You know we can say a what's possible now, what we need to do, what we can make happen, what kind of staffing we need to make sure we can support this go to market strategy, all those kinds of things. I think also it's part of purely like the on the sale side, especially like you know, the the the actual sales strategy, and what I'm trying to say like, for instance, we just moved to sort of doing more of a vertical focused account based sales, but much and that was a switch for us. Well, revops was the one that like said yes, we...

...can, we can make this happen, and we had to get all the data and me do all the planning and like all those kinds of things. But because we had somebody sitting at the table to do that, you know, we could contribute and say, yes, this is something we can do, this is things that we have information for, as opposed to having it handed down and just say go do this. You know, we're much far part of that planning phase and I think you know, if you talk to me a year from now, will be further along and I can give you more definitive from my personal okay, so, so actually not jumping quite that far ahead, but like six months from now. So there is a there's kind of a plan, there's a business case that's been made in some way, shape or form, right, and you're operating with essentially a triad, you know, marketing, sales and customer success. Are you able to say at any point along the way, Hey, the this, this leg of the triad, is weakening? Right, it's it's not it's no longer were where it needs to be in terms of performance and the way that it is interacting with the other two can are you able to do that now? Is that something that I would say we're I mean, and again I'm just going to talk about my organization, are not able to do that now, simply because we're still growing the team and, like you know, right for I'll give you example, like right now we don't have a dedicated customer success ops person and our customer success team is going through, you know, a big reorganization and changes and new platforms and all, and I've been that person for today, but just in the time that I've been managing it. I like this. This is a huge role just on its own and you know, so in the New Year, you know, we're hoping that we can have somebody that just manages that because obviously that's a very important part of of couse, the company success and revenue and it does take a dedicated person. So that's just one example. Like I feel, I feel good about our right now today. Feel good about marketing ops and sales up between, you know, our small revops team, and then there's people that are in marketing that you know, our hub spot experts and like really manage that. Like I feel like we that part is good. I feel the connection from a relationship that point of view and like process and understanding with customer success is going well. But it's more that having somebody that can just own it and like we thinking ahead and and coming up with things and all that. We are not there yet. What's the what's the biggest epiphany that you've had this year on this whole thing? Right where you all of a sudden you were sitting there and something really occurred to you in the strongest possible way that you never really thought of before and and your your work, your perspective, the way you think about reb ops, has not been the same since. So that's really what an epiphany is, right. Um, I mean this is this is I think of an epiphany about rebbs, but I think especially it was more at a personal level. Is that, you know, sometime last few months, again, you know, as a result of this acquisition of various other things, like when I stop step back and looked at what I was personally involved and managing and responsible for and how it impacted the organization and, you know, a step lower, you know individuals. I mean I kind of look at it that way, like if the salespeople could do their job efficiently and effectively, I'm doing my job well if I make it easy for them. So when I sort of step back at one point, I went wow, you did it, you pivoted and you're responsible and managing all of these things and, you know, having these relationships and making this impact on the company. For me that was a personal epiphany and, I guess, confirmation that I did the right thing by pivoting away, because I on a daily...

...basis, feel like sure, you mean pivoting away from pure marketing, right? Yeah, yes, that I made the decision to move towards ops and get some additional you know, training and things like. That was the right move for me on a personal level. But I also think that's reflected in the relationships I've built and and trust, because that's obviously the biggest thing when with this the trust, not only with individuals but like with leadership, like there's there's this just confidence that we know what we're doing and if we don't, will figure it out and we'll make the right decision. Like that's that's a lot, absolutely, especially with a hyper growth company that you know, is constantly changing and and we're trying to hold hold it all together and keep moving forward. So that you know, that was more of a personal epiphany, Moore, than like an overall revops epiphany. No, I'm with you, I totally get it. I think a lot of people have had exactly that kind of epiphany in one way or the other, regardless of what they do for a living, in the last say, eighteen months. Yeah, yeah, so, and I think it also, like I'm really excited and it's confident, like about the path forward, not only for me personally, but like forever ups, like it's I feel like it's opened up so many opportunities for people like me. But you know, the other thing, I may mentioned this previously, with with REV ups, people come at it from so many different places, like I came from marketing, the people that come from sales, if people come from finance, which is cool, I think, because we all come with distinct experiences that can apply. Yeah, and I just it's I really like that because also the other apoups people I'm meeting, we all, you know, people have different experiences and and it's it makes it makes you know the teams that companies really interesting, but also the community can learn so much from each other. So this is all like leads me perfectly straight into my welcome. Yeah, you're in. Are My last big question for you and that is this, and it's all about the road forward, as you put it right, the road ahead, and I think one of the biggest things that we've seen in the last eighteen to twenty months is both the speed and the volatility of change and the ability that it's never been more important than this today in the eyes of many business leaders, to be able to be predictive, yes, out to some reasonable time horizon and to be able to kind of recalculate that on a rolling basis right sort of like a GPS, and terms of helping you get to your your destination. How are you? How are you? How's your team thinking about this right now, and where do you see it going in your organization in terms of being able to call that ball? So, like a lot of companies, they're kind of thing, hey, we want to be able to be pretty damn predictive out two quarters and we want to go two quarters more beyond that, and we understand that will the fidelity and accuracy of the prediction starts to fall off right, but we kind of we're going to do this on a rolling basis and we want to kind of be out there head of the business right. And and then the way that that impacts planning and execution today and the time lag element that comes into play and all this kind of stuff. How are you thinking about this as a revops leader? So a few different things. So, you know, I mentioned earlier that we just as a company changed to having a very vertically focused account based sales model and marketing, but so both, but that it's interesting, though, that you are drawing the distinction. Well, yeah, because so previously, I would say,...

...we were doing account based marketing, compay selling, but we weren't focusing on specific verticals. We were in my for my companies, ICP, we were like looking at mostly company size by employee. Got It. You know, there was that. I mean that we knew somewhere better than those, but there wasn't this laser or focus on three verticals. It was it was moral and each rep had, you know, on account list and and and and so that's why I distinguished. I mean so now each rep has an account list within a vertical. So that's that's sort of before it was account based and geography and that was it was. There was no so that's that's the difference. That and and and this is just gone into effect in last two months and we're still, you know, still there's still a lot of moving pieces that. So for us, yeah, so sorry, I can interrupted you there. Yeah, but for us, so I think for you know, the first six months of two thousand and twenty two still seems weird to say. I think we will be very a very closely monitoring how this change in strategy is playing out. I mean all the research, you everything we did for planning towards it. It makes a lot of sense for what we're selling. So I think you know. But so from my perspective, from revops, it's okay. So what else can we do to make sure that everybody has the information they need, not just the processes but the information of what else can we do to unable to sales people? What else can we do from a process? What else can we do from a team point of view? You know, do we need to reorganize the team that we are better supporting the very you know, everybody? And then I think the like you said, we'll probably keep reevaluating. But I think the other thing is redoing for asting and things like that, and I'm somewhat involved and forecasting right now, but that's you know, that's going to change a lot to as as this as we learn more. So I that's kind of vague. I'm sorry, but it's look, I mean it is very much a work in progress for most people and we're definitely, you know where we're not a huge company, we're definitely hypergrowth. We and all those things. So the target is always moving. To a certain extent of we have a direction and a focus, but there will probably be more acquisitions. And so from a REVOB stampoint, we're always sort of like, okay, what's coming down the pike that we don't know about yet, because, no matter what your strategy is and your plan for six months, could just get all get through, you know, shuffled around when they bring in a new company. And I mean, you know, I've only I haven't even been here a year and we've already dealt with that. So that's fine. But like, we'll plan this and then we'll see what all right. So so I've got I do have one more question for you. That that a actually I've had several people ask me about this. Since I'm going to I'm going to ask you hard is it right now to get REV OPS talent? Is it really hard, like the the the what you see on Linkedin is everyone's like, Oh man, it's so hard, I can't get anybody right. Are you trying to specifically about ups or for sure, or just talent in general? or well, I think it's I think it is a talent in general kind of yeating. But but you know, if we, if I talked to a lot of people who are either rev ops for marketing ops or sales ups right they're all getting a lot of offers right right now. It's just totally crazy. And if you talk to managers who were trying to hire more of this talent, it's also extremely crazy. So is somebody who's like in this up to your eyebrows right now right? How what is it? What's it really like right now as far as trying with these people, because it strikes me that part...

...of it is that there's not a whole lot of them. So I think it's two things. And I will say like right now today, you know, we're not actively hiring because so I haven't personally been looking at it from a hiring manager standpoint. But you know, a year ago I was looking for a job, so you know, I definitely interacted with a lot of people. So I think it's two things. I think companies need to just just as I had this sort of circuitous way to getting to REV OPS and again, most people that are in revops that's how they've gotten there. So if somebody posts a job that they're requiring or want someone that has four years of revocas experience, or you know all these, you know, if they say things that don't accurately reflect an understanding of the knowledge and experience space that Rev ups can bring, yeah, you're probably not. You know, it's just like when you see, you know, you hear about developer jobs that are asking for more years experience in a particular coding language and the coding language is even existed, like it's kind of you know, those kinds of things. I think I think it's it's being I think people are out there, but I think it takes knowing the skill set and somebody that is flexible and creative in how they go about their work. So I think. You know, I've had people reach out to me and the good ones that reach out to me have actually, you know, identified things that they see in my linkedin or whatever that may not be in the job description or something, but they can see it in me. So I think, I think the people are out there. I think not only the people out there, because I'm in some REV OPS communities. I know they're out there. Like I know there's people out there, I know there's people hiring, but I think it's it's maybe broadening from a hiring or recruiter standpoint, you know, looking maybe for those skills and less at the title. You know, look at people that have done sales ups and maybe marketing ups. You know, they don't have to have all three. Like it's I feel like it's an aptitude and and I also this is my personal opinion, I think it's successful rev ops, especially in a leadership or senior level role, is someone that, again, and I keep harping on this, but is able to communicate in relationships, because if you don't have that, the rest of it, you know. So they're definitely people that are salesports admins that just want to like tinker and do reports and analysis. You need those people, but I would not to say that they're like brought our revops people. I would say, you know, they're for very specific tops. So I guess it's a matter of really knowing the role that you want to that person to play and and seeing if they have the aptitude, because, you know, I didn't. Nobody has a hundred percent. Yeah, absolutely, and and you know, I mean if there's anybody out there that you know, I was listening and I'm happy to give you know, feedback. If people have, you know, wondering how they should, should post things or look for things, I'm happy to help. But our post things in my communities, but I feel like they're out there and you're in Aditional linkedin. Are you anywhere else? Are you on twitter or being like that? You're just pretty much linkedin. I'm mostly Linkedin. I don't I'm I'm not a tweeter. I mean I have a yeah, so linkedin is the best. I could be coerced into tweeting, but I don't. Linkedin is the best, best place to defy me and then, you know, in some of these communities, to all right. At LEASTA. This has been a great conversation. Guys, I know that we'll have you'll have a lot more questions, as you always do when we post these, and I know the a Lisa, will be around and want to interact with you. Yeah, please, anybody wants to reach out to me on Linkedin or three, you, mark, or whatever. I'm...

...happy to connect with anyone and give feedback or answer questions. Awesome. Thank you so much, alsa. Thank you, mark. All right, guys, will be back next week with more accelerating value. The sooner you can optimize your marketing spend, the quicker you can start delivering clear, measurable value to Your Business. That's exactly where business GPS from. Proof analytics can help learn more at proof analytics DOT AI. You've been listening to accelerating value, where raw conversations about the journey to business impact help you weather the storm ahead. To make sure you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. Until next time,.

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