Accelerating Value
Accelerating Value

Episode · 1 year ago

Bob Pearson: Mastering the Complexity of Value


Bob Pearson, CEO of The Bliss Group, has been a part of some really amazing value creation over the course of his career and he shares some of those stories on today’s episode, including how he recently created The Next Practice Group, which maximizes structured value creation for clients.

What we talked about:

- Challenges of creating value in 2021

- Creating sustained value

- How value creation affects compensation and price structures

- Building a culture where people are eager to ask questions

- Clearly communicating value

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Today, every budget approval is an investment deal. If you're a marketer, sales or business leader, you had to promise to deliver value and impact. Writing the wave to get there is hard enough. Finding your way through the storm is even harder. If you're looking for that path forward so that you don't wipe out. You've come to the right place. Let's get into the show. Hi everybody, this is Mark Stue. I am the host of accelerating value, a podcast that is, no surprise, focused entirely on value creation. How we can speed it up, how can invest in it, how we can prove it, how we can protect it, all that kind of stuff. So we talked to all kinds of people on this podcast, not only functionally but also varying degrees of seniority, because, you know what, everybody has a perspective on value that is worth listening to and you can learn even from the people you don't necessarily relate to or you might even disagree with. In this particular case, the guests today is is a star, Bob Pearson. I've known Bob for probably ten years. Right, Bob? Yeah, it's out by southwest. That's right, south by southwest. We were both on a panel way back in the day and so it. You know, he has been a part of some really amazing value creation over the course of his career. There's a lot of stories, a lot of stuff that he can share about that, and then he's going to kind of culminate in a discussion of why he created this new agency called the next practice to really maximize structured value creation for clients. So that's kind of where we are and that's where we're going and welcome Bob. It's great to see again, man, and a great to be here. Always Fun to talk anymore. So let's start with the first time that in your career that you sat there as a marketer or communicator and said, Huh, I'm not sure about the value that I'm really creating. What do I do about that? Do you haven't you remember that moment? Oh Gosh, yeah, I mean there's a there's a couple examples early in my career, but one of them was we were launching bull turn and I was to see big guy game. It's going to be the thirteen monsteroidal antiplane with Rad drug to be lunched the US in the marketers wanted it to be number one right away, which is kind of unrealistic, and they kept pushing us and pushing us and we kindly realize we had to be doing something different than normal campaign wouldn't work, which led to be going out to drop the Missouri and Finding Mickey Mantle and convincing him to join our clinical trial and then become our spokesperson as well as way of work. But when we launched and drug in everyone knew it was nickey mails drug and within six months we went to number two in the market and that was that was one of those things in my life where I said I think we're doing the right thing, it feels like it, but I don't know. And then when we launch and that happens, you're like, okay, got it. There's a power greater than us that can shape markets in the question is, how do you find that? And that's not like you want to search the rest of your life trying to figure out how to unlock these pieces of value. I know that something you spend a lot of time on yourself as well, as we're always looking at what are those little pieces of value? They could maybe be big, maybe not, but we're ready to experiment. Yeah, I know it's in. So much of it too, is pretty if your business is value creation, and in a sense that's true for...

...everybody. Right, after a while, you don't want it to be serendipity. Know, you want it. You want to be able to call the vall right, you want to be able to know that certain things are going to, generally speaking, have a very valuable outcome, and then you want to know about how long it's going to take for that to happen. Yes, and that's that's the blessing we have in two thousand and twenty one versus going way back. But we always knew it is the more quantitative you can get, the more likely you are to not guess and the more precise we can get them more, you know. I'm just certain chances are better, right. You know, if you go to two thousand and twenty one, I mean, I my goodness, we can see exactly what the audience wants, we can see who's shaping them, we can all the clues are right in front of us. So it's a different challenge. It's like, how do you take all that information and then get creative enough to convince them to move in a certain direction? Right, and that that's our t two thousand and twenty one problem versus the bicking mental problem of years ago. Now. You're right. I mean, and I think particularly in the situations where there's a lot of volatility and we're change is happening at a really rapid rate, high velocity change, where what worked in two thousand and eighteen and two thousand and nineteen didn't work in two thousand and twenty and may or may not work again in two thousand and twenty one. Right, yeah, how do you calibrate that? Because all, it's not that your experience with value creation doesn't matter anymore. It really does. In the data, the historical data still matters a lot, but there's going to be that standard deviation right, and if you don't know what that is, you got a problem. Well, it's and you is a it's a fascinating point because when you think think of timing, it's very easy today to say, Oh, yeah, to be real time. Well it for certain things, being real time does make sense, but a lot of times you're actually if you're trying to shape a market, like the doctors in a market aren't going away, the nurses aren't going away, so you have actually lots of time to shape them. The question is, how long is it tape tape to shape behavior? How do you know it's occurring and how do you know, quite frankly, when you're failing? Right? So that's a different question. You might you and I might say, well, it's three months and if we can't get there in three months, we've got to figure out how to Redo our mix or a campaign, you know. or we're seeing progress but not enough, but we if we focus a different way, we can go. So the market, I think, really guides us towards the right timing as opposed to us just making up the timing and saying what has to be quicker, it has to be this or that's just that's just a finger in there stuff totally. I think you know that that is broadly applicable. But you know, it's a pore problem for startups, for example, if you've taken VC money, there's an expectation they're around a hockey stick right and and that it won't be at a long time lag, it'll be a shorter time lag. But you know, one of the things that you learn a lot in the analytics side of all this is that actually, we don't control most of the equation. HMM. Now what's what's really important to say about that too, is that that's the reason why it's so important to do the part that you control really, really well. But there's a whole part of this that is that is outside, you know, of our control. And it not just with customers. There's market forces, there's all kinds of stuff going on right and so it's a very, very interesting situation for startups because typically, you know, they have a certain amount of cash and there's a certain amount of burn raid and can you last long enough to pass through the looking glass into, you know, the Wonderland? Well, you and I both do this, and you know, we started the next practice in July of two thousand and twenty, right in the middle of Covid it takes a lot of internal courage to say hey,...'s time, let's go do it. And you know, you get a lot of folks saying we got them, you're going to do great, but you know deep down inside you're thinking so yeah, right, for through and then from there it really is like the clock. Analogy you give is a good one. I think every day is an important day when you're an entrepreneur. So you're thinking like did I get enough done? You know, and I like to do something that we call the three and three planning. Always look out three years, always plan for three months, so you always know that the decisions you make each day in a quarter or getting you to that three year vision. And it keeps you from going off the rails, because I think what can happen when you're an entrepreneur is it's easy to get busy. It's hard to it's hard to keep away the noise. So you stay focused, you know, in building the business and building the product and you offering, in the pricing and, as you know, all the things that come into that. So many things go one that most people don't know because they haven't they haven't done it. That's right, it's and it's a it's actually interesting too, because this is where the communication issue, I think, between startups and customers can be really, really pivotal, because most of the customers particting the enterprise and enterprise be tob right, most customers have never been in a startup, so they're not thinking about this at all in terms of the timeline. Right, and kind of almost so like initially with proof, right, this is now like three, four years ago, that we had a couple of early customers that saw themselves as both customers and sponsors. HMM, right, right, and there was a high degree of ownership in other ways, O than I'm a customer and I'm paying x amount of dollars a year. Right, and, and it was those customers that really made a difference because they said, you know what, this is really cool. And you and I both know that. I can and screw around on making a decision, but I'm not going to do that because I'm really intrigued and I want to be in the middle of this and some I'm going to act now, right, yeah, and and and and the value that, from a timing perspective, right, from a cash flow perspective, can be in this, and then also from a branding incredibility standpoint it can be even more immense. Right, it plays forward. Well, you both know, we've both been on the client side for many years too, and you do, you do, I mean I certainly lives like this. You're always looking for that edge and when you see a company that can provide it to you go work with them. And so you know, it's interesting when you're startups, people always talked about strategic investors, and those are very important, but you need, you do need, strategic clients who are, just like you said, who see this as I'm going to get an edge, this is worth it and they're willing to, you know, leaeve that you're going to get there, and I think you know, in generalized say that you and I are pretty good at not disappointing them either, and that's where every day is important, as you said right, but that's what you do think about in this comes down to client service. As you make it a commitment, you got to come through, you got to you got to see expectations. Like you, you're grinding on that and make sure that that happens, and I think that's, you know, what a great forcing mechanism't to say I got to go quicker to get this done, this piece of software, asking them quicker this. You know, it's always, it's always never fast enough. But I think you got to temper that too, with everyone work their own pace right. So that's where that three year vision comes in to say,...

...okay, maybe they get it much done this week, because I thought but it's still going in the right direction. We're still going over here in the North Star. We're good. Absolutely. So one of the things that this kind of brings up. It's, I think, really interesting. You know, in the context of business and in the context of marketing and in the context of running an agency, is that there is there's certainly the ability to create moments of value, but then there is the idea of sustained value. How do you think about that these days in the context of what you're doing with next practice? This is your OI and key point of why we created the next practice, and so I have a say. I have a lot of respect for the firms of work at and the firm compete against, so it's not a negative to them. But but what I do see in the industry is there's too many urnouts. I think when our announced people are staring at the calendar waiting for when they get out, and too often people don't have enough skin in the game. So we did is we said, okay, let's build a model that tries to do the best of all that, and so we have a fifty one and forty nine model. And then we will never own more than fifty one percent of a company because we want the founders coming to work every day thinking that they can create war value. It's still on them. They have to go full speed. So that's one one part. The other part is what I've learned is if you're building, you know, search over here and digital working in here, analytics here, to try to do it all together, it's very tough to do. But if you actually have an individual groups, they can really perfect their offering and you're integrating that offering, you can. You can build it much faster and much better, and so that's what led to the next practice. We have eight companies in next practice and each is building up their area of expertise. Each already integrates with each other as appropriate and the amount of entrepreneurialism is through the roof. So you know we're going to in our first year. I mean we'll probably do twenty three million total. You know, I don't know, there's not a lot of companies that could say that for the first full year. You know so, but that's a testimony to the entrepreneurs and the clients that they work with. You know, it's less to do. What I like is it's less to do with me and it's more to do with how do you unlock people? That's why we also decided our icon with be a key because we're really doing is we're unlocking people, but we're also unlocking our brains to say, whatever you did before, it could be better if you didn't search that way before. It could be better if you didn't earn media before like that. It's got to be better. And so that ability to look at what's next every day is changes things absolutely. That's that's what we that's what we're doing. So let's talk about this from a couple of more vectors, right. So this model, so from a client perspective, talk to me a little bit about how that model works and, in a heightened delivers differentiate its sustained value for clients in ways that a lot of other agencies don't. Yeah, so a couple of examples. One is Johns Hopkins University as a client of ours, and they're funded by, in this case Jons Hopkins in Department of Defense and to Covid nineteen clinical trials focused on convalescent plasm. Brilliant people at Johns Hopkins, and he's really amazing scientists and clinicians that they weren't enrolling patients for the trial. Just wasn't happening. And so when we came in, what we did is we didn't do the traditional approach. We use analytics to say where are the people that we actually want to reach? What are the letters to reach them? which media should we use first? Should we start with paid or earn or share or owned or some Combo? And each Combo changes by which city during you know, and so in...

...doing that we could figure out what works. So we could see, in twenty per hour or less, is this work? You know, is facebook driving in people? Is Google driving in people? Is it something else? And that has led us to now that, you know, the studies are right on trapped to finish. The other thing too, is we found that we could reach more diverse people, you know, because it's always been a problem in clinical trials. Are you getting enough people who are of color or who maybe or poor or people that we traditionally go into a trial at the same pace, and we're able to calibrate with analytics and then figure out how to reach people and drive those numbers as well. I'm very proud of them, you know. So that's that's one example. I think another one would be early in Covid we do some work with Crayola up for face masks, and so you know, if you think about the early days of Covid, they need wearing face mask wasn't so cool. And so we were introducing how you can have different colors for each day, so a parents could actually have a different one for their kids each day and know which one was Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. And it took off, you know, but some but that was understanding, like how to actually package with Karola. Wanted to accomplish with what people needed at the parental level and then market it correctly. And again, we don't care if pay is working or learn or share own relevant to us, as long as it's getting into the right place. How do you how do you see this right now in terms of the way that you compete? Yeah, I mean we we have a lot of clients where there's no pitch at all. I would say that the majority of our assignments or not not a pitch involved. But of course some companies that you know, always have to have. Doesn't matter how what they think of you, you're still going to go against three or four or five firms right. So you know, we do pretty well there as well, I think. I think the key thing is not trying to swallow the ocean and figure out what a problem can we solved with the client first. I've always believe that it's like the size of the assignment is not relevant. It's are we coming in as a strategic partner that can solve problems? And if we, if we come in that way, we're good, because that's using the best of us. I think you know, being an ex client, what's the one of the worst things that you can do is commoditize your firm and just say I need you to do this, just go do this. What you really want to do is say, Hey, I wonder how smart market is, or Sally or frank and unlock your firm. And so we try to get that across to our clients as well as pro anything that's and we'll probably come back to the good answer whether or not we're the ones. You can do it when you think, how does this translate into like your compensation model as an agency? So yeah, that's a good another one where we do not have high sourns. So we have back to the CAP on calm. I'm not I am not the highest paid person in the in the network on purpose and will. Why do we do that? We do that because we want people who believe that, hey, if we did we have a great outcome for the year and we're profitable. Everyone's going to do fine. Right, but we don't want people coming in say Oh, I need X, Y and Z and I need a car, I need this, and the people come in with pots and needs are forgetting that the real need is the client and the value that we provided them. And that's what I want people talking about. You know, we can we can handle the other stuff later on, and that's I think that this attracts a different kind of person. I think agencies have gotten too aggressive and competing at you know, will give you, will give you the world financially. It's like, well, how about about coming in and getting results right? It also tends to play against the idea of sustainable value creation, right, because...

...exactly people go for, you know, these these really big short term you know, performance now comes and kind of ride them. Yes, well, this is does. This is also why, you know, we have the model we have at the fifteen, one hundred and forty nine is net never are getting to any higher than that. Is. You know, we need to get people together on the Saturday to talk about an opportunity. We do like you. Don't try to do that in purpose every Saturday, but if everyone understands like we're here to just win. In winning means kneeling in for the client, you know. So that's that's not ninety five. That's as needed. You know. Yeah, absolutely. How does it? How does it translate into the way you charge clients? I think it's I don't think there's one way. I think I think you want to be valued. You wanted to value pricing whenever possible right and it really I always believe that it's something cost a hundred grand and that's a fair price. It's not really relevant, or shouldn't be, to a client if it takes us a hundred and twenty grant of time or eighty grant of time, as long as we do a fantastic job. I think when we push people towards hourly rates, it can still work just fine, but all we do is count. We're just worried about how many hours and does it fit the budget? and to me, those are those are not behaviors that are related to creative value. You know, so I that's where I tend to focus is anytime and he can make it more value or ITT and you're going to get better results for the client and it's a healthier way to run a business. So one of the model that I have had a number of conversations about. I'd love to hear what you think of it, because it's sort of is a riff on something that exists already on the client side, right, in terms of the particularly the ways and your executives are compensated. So there's this idea that there's your base, there's there's the fee, right, that basically acknowledges the fact that it takes something to mount this service. There is short term performance based comp about meeting certain KPI's, right, and then there's long cycle performance space comp which is really about value creation, right, right, and and obviously there's a measurement and analytics component to all this as well, but it kind of has a so deloit is starting to do this on the change management side of things and they're really seeing a lot of success with it, not only from client happiness point of view, but also it tends to bear against really significant procurement action, right in terms of discounts. What do you think about that? You feel like that that is kind of like, in general terms, where things need to go? Or do you feel like that there is something else? I mean, clearly what's happening right now in the on the consulting side is seen as no longer working right. Right, like the clients feel like they're taking all the risk. And so how do you how do you think this is all going to go? So I this is abroad, is an industry building. Interesting question. And the personal I before I even get to the client and think of our own teams and I think if we are providing people with the best career opportunities, the best chance to grow, the best answer to manage teams into build, then we have a team that will do really well. They're going to work really hard, they going to create great value. So that's it's that's that far. On the client side, it's so hard, and you know this, it's so hard to say that what any one firm does was the reason why something else happened. Oh Yeah, absolute, but there's so many variables. So you really have to say...

...that's just get a fair price and let's just do acceptual work, and then I think the bigger part is the stuff that you can do approve, which is really looking at the mix and saying, okay, what is working and what's not working? Was it was his email working more effectively than we thought, or as search working more effect than we thought? Where is this form of paid media working? And it's the ability for firms to not care and be a built and kill what they're doing immediately. That's what clients would be asking of them, because if they can get the data that you have and say this is working and that's not, you shouldn't have to argue with the consulting firm basically say got it, kill that, do this working all over here done. You know into that that that's the kind of the end. They would change a game if otherwise. What happens, as you know, is consulting firms usually just keep going as hard as they can and then they try to prove to you that everything they did was amazing, and yet they know deep down that they probably should have stopped doing you have to stop halfway through the here, but they didn't want to admit that because we're not giving them the environment to do that. So that's a two way street. It is absolutely. I mean I have a conversation about three months ago. I had it with a CFO and I and he was complaining about his marketing team and is the agency expense and you know, all this kind of stuff, and I said, well, what have you done to, you know, establish the rules of play? Right, right? Well, nothing. Well, then nic said, well then, in fairness, you own part of this, right. But you know, mark, I think about it too. Is like, as a leader of myself, if I'm creating an environment where it's okay to come to me and say, Hey, this isn't working and we say, okay, great with let's figure out why. I learn from it. What do we do? Know, that's a healthy environment. But if it's like if you say that to me and I go what are you talking about? That I'm on in their grill, that's not cool. And it's the same thing with clients. Like if you have that kind of relationship, which we do with a lot of replients, you just figure it out and you get to a great place. And I think that's again, this is where analytics is that like true serum it, because you know, even if we don't have it, we can awful in love with whatever we're doing and convince yourselves. But we have to look and say, is it really work, you know, or is it anny more value to this other part of the media we're doing, yes or no? So let's talk about this a little bit more from a cultural improvement point of view. Right. So there's a need for accountability, which, of course, is the word that nobody really likes, right, right, and then there's a need for learning, and learning culture, right, the culture you were just talking about. In your own experience, how have you learned to balance those two? Well, one of the things I always well, good question. What I always say is that the best CEOS that I've been around are curious and always ask questions. So what you want is an environment where people are eager to ask questions, which means that they're eager to debate in in that that has a lot to do with it. So if people are people like you know, if you go reverse of that, if people fee there accountable and the responsible, all the right words are said, there can be a lot of fear baked into that too. I was sure in and that that's no good. So you need to be accountable, but then say like hey, where I'm not exactly sure what you meant by this or this is what I'm seeing here, and not exactly sure that that means. What do you think? You know in that ability to be like peerless or pure act like pure as, I guess, at any level. That's that's the key. That's that's what I saw with a Michael dellan's and I saw with you other exacts like that, as they just always asking questions, but they're asking questions really the further the discussion and get you to see where they go. They're not just...

...asking questions for the hell of it. It's so true. I mean actually it's very similar to one of the things that we that we talk a lot about with regard to analytics, is that I think a lot of people see analytics as a judge in black robes. Hmm Right, and this is where, this is where analytics is. It's not really analytics, it's it's the culture. It's the way the culture us the analytics. Right, yeah, but in reality analytics really is a coach. So it helps you do better, right, you ask questions and it gives you finkback, right, and it's a bodyguard. MMM, because it can substantiate that the risk that you took did in fact create a lot of value. Yeah, well, and I would add more if I've always looked at it as is. We say actional insights. Is there an insane we can act on, or that we're smarter because we saw this data together? And if the answers no, it doesn't mean the data's bad, it just means we haven't looked at it in a way. Yeah, it gives us that insight. So if you never give up on that, you're good. But it's I mean, as you know, we've all seen too many slide the pike charts and everything else and like, okay, this is nice, but I don't know what the heck it tells me exactly. Totally, you know. So I don't need thirty of those lines, I need zero those slaves. Yeah, actually, you know, a proof. One of the big breakthrough realizations for us was nothing more nor less than the realization that for many, many people in businesses, when you flash a chart, or particularly a graph, complex graph, on the screen, they immediately shut down because they immediately feel stupid. Hmm Right, and it doesn't have anything to do with how smart they are. This is a purely psychological kind of dynamic, right, but it is pervasive and there's a lot of research. So after we started kind of stumbling into it, we started looking around trying to figure out if we could corroborate this. Man, there's like a ton of stuff out there on it. And so when we change the UX, we change the presentation away from what you're talking about into something that was very normal and accessible for most people. Wow, I was it was just like throwing a switch. It was really kind of interesting. Well, you're getting something to where we we have started put together a book that we're doing just for ourselves in the next practice and they eventually be a book that people want, calls next and it's basically going to be a series of one page analysis. But you know, like what you're just describing there, it's like, how do you actually know that you have an insane I mean that's that's a page where you just say, okay, this is what goes into it. Absolutely how do you know when you know? I could be another one right. But but I think we have an obligation to not only train our teams but to kind of retrain ourselves and then also, I indirectly, our clients. So we all understand what we're looking for, because I think that's what happens a lot of times with data is it's kind of like your point on the Pie Chart. What I'm aways conscious of is when you show anything anyone, whatever they had in their past is triggered in the rain. I don't want that happening. I wanted to be so clear. You're not thinking about something from a year ago and that's that. Unfortunately, people don't do that that often and then, you know, you can get into these conversations like why didn't understand what we're saying? It's like, well, you didn't make it that clear. So yeah, it's true. I mean actually in my own life, I'll just I think that people that knew me in middle school and early high school are sort of have been shocked to see me become the CEO of an analytic software company, because I...

...was known for, you know, doing really well and history and you know, certain kinds of sciences and English and English lit and all this kind of pay right and in Algebra was was not my thing. Were so I thought right, and then I and then I had an experience of HP that kind of they were able to kind of break through or help me break through and realize that this was a mental block or a psychological block. Right, it wasn't about marks, just not a math person, right. M. Yeah. Well, there's a lot of us who, and I would put myself in this camp to or you know, I've been playing. People say I'd never had any idea get successful. As your psychology. I don't know if that's a compliment or not. Thank you hearing it right. Maybe just shows a your thought of me thirty years ago. But I think we get we evolved, right, we become more curious in things like I always love math, but I was never a good at calculus. But you know. But as you get older you're like, oh, but I love Algorithms, I you know, and then you just start thinking like that and you realize you don't have to be building them, you just have to be fluent in how others do so then you can have that conversation. Is One of the things I often will talk about with younger people, as to say you need to play with Python, it, you know, play with software, not to be a programmer, but to understand how to talk to programmers, because you're going to be directing them for vice versa. The rest of your life. So how they think is different than how you think. You know, and you know this. It's like you know the very you can have like a very linear mindset with a great programmer and then you're over here with the creative and it's like you got word association going on. I'm like, I'm not even sure how you put those three things together, but it seems cool. Yeah, I actually you know, that's so true. I mean that was exactly the way it worked for me at Honeywell when I was CEMO honeymill aerospace. Is that I obviously couldn't do the analytics myself. I didn't have skill sets right, but I knew how to communicate with a very large analytics team and all I would say is I really need, or someone else really needs to know that this. This right. The answer to this question for that question. Yeah, how do we do that when this is so? They were, I definitely believe this. In say this often in generally, communicators and marketers who were good at what they do have this in need ability to make complex things simple right, and we've been told this in our lives many different times, like how did you come up with that tagline or that the headline that ran the new cycle ones. I I don't know. You just you just have the ability. It's like an artistic ability, and that really helps when you're looking at data to just say, okay, got well, these inputs means this. Okay, it's going to do this, you know. And so I don't know. I think a lot of communicators and marketers think that they can do this stuff well and they're not. I don't. I don't believe it. I think they would be awesome at if they would spend more time at absolutely so. My last question here to wrap it all up here is, and it sounds like a trick question, is actually not, because you can go you know. But do you think that value is a simple idea or a complicated idea? I think value is a complex idea because it's it's subjective right, and so it means, if you think about it, let's say we're bouting client agency. You have to understand that clients business. You have to understand what they're trying to accomplish. You have to understand which otter prioritizing which things. If you can do that, then you're on the road to understanding what they see. Is Valuable, then you have... be over here with their team and make sure they're doing the right things that can actually impact that, because you may be doing great thing but they're not in the right word for that client. So I think it's actually on the surface is simple, but it's actually quite complex to provide the right value. And that's why for people who were teams for firms that try to wing it and do it by intuition, good luck. You know you'll get some of it right, but getting some of the rate isn't isn't greatness. So you have to have the right platforms in place, you have to have the right algorithms in place so you can actually get their more factually and I think really makes a difference. So this is actually one of the greatest lessons, you know, that we've seen out of two thousand and twenty. Is that exactly what you're saying right that if you if you are looking at this as what created value before the past, is always prolog right. In Two thousand and twenty you got bit really on. So in general, the companies that we work with where they had people in there who had you know they were they were just going to kind of like tweak two thousand and nineteen. For the rest of two thousand and twenty, they lost big I mean the ratio, the kind of the twenty rule sort of inverted for them right in that place. And that and that right there shows you the complicating or the fact that time and circumstance make it very complex. Yeah, if you do, even in your Moirement, you're in right and and the and like your one k right, your you're what you considered value at age twenty five, thirty five, forty five, fifty five and sixty five is going to be very different. Right and that day you like to go back to the next practice. You know, did does and people say, are you sure you really want to start a collect of the Banda driven firms in the middle of covid and in the end serve? My end was actually, this is probably the best time ever. Oh yeah, because of the ability to work remotely and just has have more time to the people to talk, you know, and turn out to be accurate. But you can feel it because you're doing your homework and you can just see, you know, it's been a terrific conversation. Thank you so much. That was I always enjoy talking with you mark every time and I never know where we're going to go, but it's always a fun conversation. The sooner you can optimize your marketing spend, the quicker you can start delivering clear, measurable value to Your Business. That's exactly where business GPS from. Proof analytics can help. Learn more at proof analytics DOT AI. You've been listening to accelerating value, where raw conversations about the journey to business impact help you weather the storm ahead. To make sure you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. Until next time,.

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