Accelerating Value
Accelerating Value

Episode · 1 year ago

Membership Marketing: Acquisition, Retention & Engagement

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

For businesses, value is equivalent to monetization. For customers, not so much.

Todd Unger, Chief Experience Officer for the American Medical Association (AMA), understands the healthcare value chain from all angles. Todd is also the AMA’s SVP of Marketing and Member Experience.

It’s only fitting that I invited him onto this episode of Accelerating Value, to discuss:

  • How to get people to pay attention while they’re under pressure
  • The AMA’s role in the healthcare value chain
  • Recurring membership marketing and audience growth
  • Todd’s most significant learnings from the pandemic

Keep connected with Accelerating Value on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.  

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Today, every budget approval is an investment deal. If you're a marketer, sales or business leader, you had to promise to deliver value and impact. Writing the wave to get there is hard enough. Finding your way through the storm is even harder. If you're looking for that path forward so that you don't wipe out, you've come to the right place. Let's get into the show. Hey, everybody, it's markstuice, with accelerating value, your weekly podcast about everything that has to do with defining value, proving it, protecting it, investing in it and, as you know, because our audience just keeps on going up and up and up. So thank you for that. As you know right, this is this is where we really get to grips with how different guests think about value in their daily life and work. And it does vary, obviously, depending on your roll and all that kind of stuff. But ultimately, while there are many precursors to value right, a lot of times it ultimately has to monetize for a business to call it by you, it doesn't necessarily have to monetize for a customer to call it value, and that's going to be, I think, really relevant here in this conversation. So today really really timely conversation given everything that we've all passed through in the last year and a half or so. Todd Unger is the chief experience officer of the AMA. No, I don't mean the American Marketing Association, I mean the American Medical Association, and he is. He's the chief experience officer that encompasses marketing and communities and all that kind of good stuff. So welcome todd and, and just tell us a little something about yourself before we get started. Next Mar Yeah, I wish we could say we've passed through what we've been going through. We're still kind of in the middle of that. I'm, as you say, to Cxo for the AMA and head of marketing and member experience. I've been at the AMA for about four and a half years and it has been an incredible experience. I'm excited to talk to you about what we're up to. Is it a is being the head of customer experience or Audience Experience at the Ama? Is that a mission for you? Well, it's, I would say, chief experience officer. I guess you know it was a new role for me, a new role for the AMA, and I think a lot of been has been defining what that means and it has evolved from really a focus on membership and membership generation retention to encompass kind of the broader scope of marketing for the organization and thinking about how we reach more people with our thought, leadership, resources and point of view. So for me it's a mission. Marketing is always been kind of a mission for me. You feel you feel like the particular in the last a couple of years that it has a deeper meaning than it ordinarily would. A lot of been as been defining what that means and it has evolved from really a focus on membership and membership generation retention to encompass kind of the broader scope of marketing for the organization and thinking about how we reach more people with our thought, leadership, resources and point of view. So for me it's a mission. Marketing is always been kind of a mission for me. Yeah,...

...it actually, you know, it has redefined value, I think for many people in many industries right, but probably none more than you and your industry. I mean, it's always been about saving people's lives, making people healthy, but there's nothing quite lie a covid or something of that ilk right. Yeah, it's funny because when I originally took this position I came from a very different world and not in healthcare. And you know, the that job itself really appealed to me and what I've grown to appreciate is how meaningful is to work in healthcare and especially in the last couple of years undergoing a pandemic and what this organization can really do to help and advance medicine, help physicians and patients in a time of absolute chaos and crisis is a particularly meaningful thing that I didn't expect, obviously, when I took this job almost five years ago. You know, it's a tremendous opportunity to step up and lead and to help in a very, very defined way. And I the interesting thing is like over our overall strategy doesn't doesn't change in terms of what we represent when we say where the physician's powerful ally and patient care, that the the building blocks of that are the same. But you have to translate that in a pandemic to say exactly what is that mean you're going to do, and so that was a very deliberate decision for us. You talked about value. Before you know what value are we going to bring to this profession and to patients at a time like this? And so we actually we set step back and said, you know, there are a million things that we could do here, but here, here are the ways that we're going to serve physicians, residents, medical students and this country during a time of crisis. And so we have kind of our own, I would say, covid response strategy to make sure that that values define and that comes across. So let's actually let's start given that, let's start with something like super practical, right, and that is in the midst of all this, where healthcare professionals on the front lines have been more pressurized than ever. How do you even get them to pay attention to what you're saying right? I mean, if you, if you kind of think about it, and this is not really about Ama, it's just where they are right they are so pressurized, they are, you know, they're their personal triage, okay, is so rigid right now. How do you what's the where do you meet them? You know, it's funny because you get that question a lot, like even before the pandemic, people would ask me this question. Like, you know, physicians are really busy, students are really busy. How do you get there? How do you get their attention? And then, of course that's magnified by a mill and during this pandemic, my response is always been the same, which is like you pay attention to the things that you're interested in and then things that are very meaningful in your life and in this day and age, you know, the rest of it is just kind of move to the periphery. And so the job for me and our organization is be one of those things that you care about because it's delivering value to you. You know, we were always producing great work and the question that people had was like, I don't see it. I'm not hearing enough from you what we're you know, where are you in this? And so, you know, what I saw is the is the need to like turn that dial up by like ten, do you know? I mean it's like ten of ten, especially in...

...a pandemic scenario like it's hard to rise above the din of all these other voices out there and get through and let people know, hey, we heard you. Don't have enough. You know, Ppe we're going to step in and help. We're going to we're going to talk to the president about it. You know, hey, we know there's so much misinformation out there. WHO's going to stand up for medicine and try to correct that? We're going to do that. How do you, you know, implement tell a medicine which you know was kind of progressing but now needs to go to like a thousand miles an hour? How do I do that? And not just the technology part of it, but all the other system pieces, including, like, you know, reimbursement and private see and technology, all of those pieces. That's how you need to be in a in normal times, in and a pandemic, is be the thing that people want to enter act and when they have a question. You know we people do now is they go to Google and they type it in. And you know, when we want someone to have fact based, databased information, you know, where do we want them to go? We want them to go to the AMA. And so the job is to build a digital platform that enables that. You know, it's a obviously completely different industry, but but similar kinds of issues. In the last two years, so the restaurant associations, right as as their members businesses started to collapse, they really started doing not only a lot of public affairs work and lobby work and all that kind of stuff, but they started doing heavy duty podcasting and digital classrooms and all that kind of stuff. Super, super practical stuff, like, Hey, I'm thinking I'm about to lose my restaurant. How do I handle this? What does this mean? What do I need to look out for, you know, and and it was they, you know, they think they're I was reading article in The New York Times where they were talking about the fact that their interaction, their engagement was restaurant tors went from being kind of like to really super intense, right, very committed, and that they have they've gradually built out beyond that moment into a whole stable of it's almost like, you know, continuing education. It's a lot like which what Ama has done in some of your big meetings, right, you have a lot of continuing education credits and all that kind of stuff that you sponsor. This is similar and I was struck by the parallels. Listen, though, when you think about experience and what that constitutes these days for someone that's like in the association world, a lot of that is driven by content, and so you know, that has been for us this big change of beating building out our media platform, and you know that's been progressing, you know, a progressing thing. That started with our website, then into original video that we do, into podcasting and you know, you know, we just launched our roku channel. In some ways this, you know, it is a media platform, and we think about how to achieve our strategic objectives, which are really, you know, to amplify, increase influence, you know, the voice of Medicine, especially at a time right now, it is dependent on media. And you know, I you in issues around healthcare and medicine, like I want doctors to be the loudest voice in the room, and you know, right now they're not. And so I look at this and say that's where the this the potential is. We're seeing how much of an impact we can do by enabling that. And you know, if you want to deliver value to people, solve their problems,...

...right. I mean, you know, I talked about the fact that the AMA is really an engine that powers it's membership to deliver what could be argued the ultimate value to anyone particular who's sick or in extremists in some way, right, and that's I don't know, I don't know that. I would say it's like an an engine. I mean, when we say like powerful ally and patient care, that's what we mean. Means that, you know. But if you talk to any physician out there, what becomes completely apparent and like the first ten seconds, is this is a calling for them and there's nothing that they want more than to treat patients and make them better. But when they do that, there are so many obstacles that stand in the way of that. They really needs, you know, in entity like the AMA behind them. And you know, whether it's like speaking to Washington with a unified voice, or big insurance companies, you name it, whether it's doing kind of a long term important work to confront, you know, chronic health crises like we have right now with hypertension and diabetes, or these public health crisis like we're in right now, whether it's looking at these obstacles that have existed in healthcare for a long time. I mean we be before the pandemic, we were experiencing in tremendous levels of burnout. We see, you know, disparities and Health Outcomes for marginalize, mentor and ortized populations out there. And then, finally, when you're looking at the future of medicine. I mean look what's happened with telling medicine, like you know, in the last year. I mean tremendous progress, but requires sus systematic changes to make it work. That's the role that we play, is being there for for for medicine, for physicians. So let's so let me, let me. Let me talk a little more about where I was going with what kind of think about the old Intel and side. One of the reasons why Intel launch that campaign thirty five years ago was that customers were unaware of the value that chip choice in their EC right made in the performance of their and their experience with that pc right. They Intel. It's sort of an abstracted in that whole equation by IBM and compact and some of the other PC makers. Part of value delivery right is making sure that that people understand that you delivered the value right. It's until inside. Who who in your world, other than physicians? You care about the fact that they know that you're doing what you're doing. Like, how are you? How do you ultimately say, Hey, I'm not trying to brag or anything, but this is our value, this is what we bring to the table right you. You wouldn't have been able to maybe do some of what you did if it weren't for us. Yeah, I it's funny. I don't really love that in allogy at all. I think we do seare a common problem problem, common problem which is, you know, whether or not our audience is aware of the work that we're doing. And so that that's something that I was in, you know, in let's say membership marketing, which, you know, runs through a cycle and a year you might get that solicitation and the other end or the gear later, you get, you know, renew and in the middle we are spending primarily our time, I would say, in kind of earn medium world where, you know, we we see something, we put a statement out, it might get picked up and put New York Times or post or something like that, and people may see that, it might make the news, depending on what that is. But we were very, very reliant on other people to tell our story, and so that is why, you know, we begun to build our own media platform so that we can have conversations with our members and with physicians, medical students, residents all the time.

Seven and you know, that is where behaving like a media platform in that regard, allows us to make that connection with them so that there are constantly aware of the issues that were, you know, we're working on in medicine and, you know, enabling physicians, students, residents again with a platform to have their voices amplified. So from that in that regard, like, it's all about visibility. So it's not about, you know, being inside, so to speak. But there are other constituencies. Obviously, patient care is what the end goal is, physicians, you know, being those that really that are the delivering that. But we have obviously, you know, strong relationships at the federal and state level with agencies legislature that are incredibly important and where a lot of work does go on behind the scenes to make sure that we're, you know, keeping our eye on patients out there. Is there a because a lot of this is kind of classic, almost like be to be, but is there a is there a consumer aspect to the AMA mission is there are there times when you're talking not to doctors but to their patients. So it is a B Toc play from that standpoint, because physicians are our customers, right positions, residents, medical students. I'm talking to them individually. It's like a direct mark getting operation. It just so happens that there are a million and a half of them. But as a primary audience, and that is who with whom I'm communicating, you know, in the public sphere, as in talking to patients and talking to, you know, the whole country. You know, we do achieve that through the kind of media exposure that we get. You know, our president, Dr Gerald Harmon, was on MSNBC last night and in heat when he speaks, or our past president, Dr Susan Bailey, is, you know, on the news. You know we're reaching tens of millions of people and that's why you see like just tremendous respect among the public for the work that the AMA does as well, even though that's not probably our primary communication channel. That just gets, you know, that's much more expensive and he has to be handled in a very different way. We also partner with books like the Ad Council on, you know, let's say, vaccine awareness and getting people to get the vaccine, so that the you know, the work and our voice give me uplified in that way. So when you when you think about the leadership of the aim right, so kind of think about that constituency, your members, the doctors. Right, there's different segments here. How do you how do they? How do the similarities? What similarities are there in terms of the way they see your value as your job, right, your team's job, versus how they see it differently. The other's that old thing that says where you sit, the terms, where you stand, and it doesn't have to be an antagonistic thing. It can just be a change of perspective, right, just be a different angle on it. You see that people see your your results differently. So when I think about like what, you know, how I'm judged is, you know, our membership and, I would say audience for all of our initiatives at the am and then, finally, how do people feel about and think about this brand? And so that's kind of like, you know, ultimately the measures that I get judged by at the end of the year, and I would say there's that's, you know, my my leadership at the Ama. Would you know? Those are the things I commit to doing every year and we've been very successful at doing that for the, you know, past many years. I left last year in the midst of a pandemic or percentage growth and our physician membership is the...

...largest that we've seen since we've been keeping track, it's over seventy years. Our brand sentiment scores are, you know, way up and our audience, you know, relative to when I started four years ago, is, you know, almost five x. So you know, when you go to the end, you know the other end of that and you talked to physicians or residents, students, you know for me, if they understand and see the value of what we're bringing to the table, if they are so thrilled with it that they're willing to join and they want to join and they want to participate in our policy making process, in and our you know, our sections and kind of governance and just the general enthusiasm and support for the work that the organization is doing and that, you know, the engagement with the resources that we've developed for them. I think they it's kind of one in the same but just, you know, the different people on the other ends of that. So it's a good feeling. But one of the things I wanted to ask you that's very much in that same line, and you already answer part of it, is that in the software business, right as things have moved into the cloud, you know, we talked about the fact that pricing has moved to a subscription basis or a sass basis, right, and so one of the one of the obviously one of the major metrics that people like me care about, right, is how many you know, what's our what's our new rr new annually recurring revenue? Right, that's that's kind of a representation of new members, let's call it that. Right. And then renewals, because renewals is sort of even more important in the sense because these are people who've lived with you for a year and who know what they're really getting and they really want more of it and so they're going to sign up again. Do you, I would imagine that that during the particularly last say two years, that not only have you seen an explosion and membership but a deepening of the relationships as well. So whether it's a new or new or higher level or whatever, right. Yeah, we're seeing. You know, we obviously you know. I look at that those two tracks that you just named, acquisition retention. We're increasing in both areas. I'm judged on both areas, and so, you know, for me it's the better we do our jobs that those things come along with it. The more value we show, the more people join, the more people stay. But I think it's interesting, like I think the perspective that I brought into this organization when I came in in two thousand and seventeen was really it was different because I came from a subscription operation world and even though it was in a dramatically different space. It was in horse racing, if you can believe that. It was very, very different. But I worked for, you know, the daily racing form, which is a media property that is in racing, big hundred and seventy five year old newspaper. But you know, my job, as you know, chief digital officer and chief marketing officer. You know, was it all about getting people to subscribe to premium content by data packages, join a adding platform, and that is all about acquisition and retention and engagement. And even though the context is so incredibly different in healthcare, the job is relatively similar and the metrics are relatively similar. And I learned so much from my old CEO who had been an executive at Hirst Media and would talk to me about, you know, what a retention rates look like. He would talk in a magazine world about like you know your first you know on your first you know time, you you know reupt on your subscription, what the renewal rate would look like on that group of people versus people in your two, three, four and five, what those norms were like. So I kind...

...of walked in the door with a very different set of experiences and no knowledge about healthcare per se, but a lot of knowledge about running a digital media operation and a digital subscription operation, and so I you know, I came in knowing kind of what that language was in needing to bring folks along. So you know, things that you might take for granted in your marketing world about like a digital marketing funnel, that new concept. We didn't have like a landing page at the end of that when I first started here. Button that said, you know, join the AMA. So there was a lot of you know, basic blocking and tackling to get that funnel together and then the content operation, once that kind of infrastructure was built, to really be at the top of the funnel for us. So it's been exciting. Now that's awesome. I mean, okay, so I got a couple more questions. So one of the things that I've learned, in fact, I just had this experience earlier this week, is that sometimes you launch something into an audience and you have no real appreciation for how it's going to play. So I did a post. Not what a big deal, what I didn't feel. I mean I wrote this post and less than fifteen minutes right, and put it out on Linkedin. It was about time lag, time lag and marketing, and it absolutely it just somehow caught everybody exactly right and it just exploded, just absolutely exploded as there can you think of something that you've done in the last several years for the AMA that is sort of similar, where you know you're out there in the world and doctors come up to you and say, you know what that thing meant so much, and you hear about that thing all the time. Oh yeah, like a lot of stuff. It's funny. I just to your earlier comment. I find the less time I spend on my linked post, the better they do. Used to spend like so much time like writing and crafting them, and then I think I just put one out that I said. I think I said like I think the United States could really benefit from a chief marketing officer, and that's like, you know, the really it's an insight and people. It resonates with people because they get they understand. It's not hard and I think it's some ways. You know, it translates here to because medicine it can be very technical and hard to understand, and if you want to be a media platform that reaches a lot of people, you got to work, you know, in the context that they are, which is extremely busy and Google driven, and so you've got to really gear your operation toward that. One of the cool things that we've kind of come across we're building this franchise called what doctors wish patients knew about blank and you know, it started with things about the vaccine and about breakthrough infections and about you name it. I mean we've now done like twenty different pieces on this. You can find that on our website, and we're now in the multimillions of audience on this one franchise. And that, you know, to your earlier question about reaching the public. It's like the perfect approach because we're trying to explain to people in a doctor's voice why it's so important that they should know something, and it's you know, when again and when they type in Johnson and Johnson vaccine. They're going to get our article about it and it's going to be in a physicians voice. So that's been incredibly resonant and and it's just like I love the numbers and I, like you know, I love dashboards and I like seeing numbers go up, and so that's been incredibly exciting. And so when you when you come across something like that and you see the numbers and you know you follow it and you've got a great, great thing going. One of the other other things that I think we'll probably go down in my life was like one...

...of my favorite things I've ever done. This last year. No audience for medical school graduations. No live audience, no, but no live graduation at all, and we kind of stepped into that void. Are we heard from our some of our medical students like could you do something to celebrate that? And I was like why don't we? Why don't we go big? And I had seen this. I think it was like the WHO did a thing with Lady Gaga, and I was like, I see how they did that and I'll bet we could do something similar where they kind of created that all filmed remote. They did it and we were able basically to bring together the leading physicians in the country, starting with Dr Anthony Fouchy, and just you the surgeon general, like a wholes just group, our president, all this tremendous group of folks. And then I worked with my younger brother, who's a Hollywood actor and producer who plays a doctor on television, and he brought together all of the TV doctors and so we had a cask of scrubs and we had, you know, the resident and we had grays and grey's anatomy. We had three different academy award winners. I mean it was including Jeff Bridges get clothing mode, to get clooney us. He knows not on there, but you know, we did. We had just so many it was like one of those things. It's very it's still very moving to me and if I'm down I'll go watch it on youtube because he just was incredibly moving and it just touched so many people and to me was just another example of how like we can produce media. It hardly cost anything. All these celebrities did this for free. It was like an amazing accomplishment for organization and amazingly motivating to our audience and and extremely fulfilling and as generated just an enormous audience, like beyond anything that we could expected. So that's awesome. So the way we wind up the podcast usually is that we kind of make it a little bit more personal, right and and the it's sort of this is sort of iterated during the code period a little bit. What do you think you've learned out of the last eighteen months that maybe you didn't know before code? Like that's become super real to you. I get to talk to a physician at least every day. One of the things that I started a year ago was something that's called the covid nineteen update, and we did that. You know, it was a very dark period, like last April, I mean just nuts, and I just I just kept hearing from folks that they weren't hearing enough from us, and what I wanted to do was to really showcase and amplify the voices of the people on the front lines so that we could hear hear what they were going through and learn from them. And so we started this little, you know, video update which is really grown over the past year and a half or now at approaching three hundred and fifty episodes, which you can find on Youtube. Go, go get them and we get to talk to a physician or a group of Physicians, educators, students, residents, other leaders in healthcare, in the government, and I get to talk to these folks. It's been like an amazing honor and privilege and it has really really helped me understand what they're going through and I don't think the sound strange, but to a lot of people, like customers, sometimes I think are hypothetical. You don't know that person necessarily. On the other end, maybe you sit in a focus group and you listen to people talk about things or you whatever through informal channels. But one of the things that I've really worked on and I've learned is that value of showing them and putting them at the center of my organizations experience to and how powerful it is to hear...

...from them firsthand and give them the platform, and that that's what's inspired me and, I think, my vision for where this organization go I I think we're just at the start of leveraging media to increase the influence of physicians and the Ama in medicine and and patient care. I see a lot of potential for where this can go and again, back to that thing. When it comes to issues around your health, I want doctors to be the loudest voice in the room, I would imagine, you know, even on a if you think about all the trauma that the medical community has been through. Right a really good friend of mine is that is a an ear physician here in Phoenix who has recently gotten a PTSD diagnosis himself. So he's going to take a little, little time off, but it's a the ability for pet even physicians, to feel the empathy of other people through those kinds of programs, I think would be really that's a big part of what it's about. Yeah, I mean, even before this pandemic happened, a pandemic just kind of like exacerbated everything that was already wrong. But I mean we already had, you know, measured the levels of burnout among physicians, which were way higher than the average comparable jobs. And you know, you think about like like delivering on a calling and then to find out like you know, you can't you, they can't. They you can't get the the operation or the procedure approved because the insurance company won't approve it, or the or the drugs the front of the medicines too expensive, or you're under a mountain of paperwork and you're sitting in your, you know, pajamas at night spending two hours putting notes into any hr like it's a lot. And when you layer on top a pandemic where the pressure that these physicians are under right now, whether those on the front lines or those that are not, the financial pressure that's been on folks practice this country basically shut down for months and months. You know, the physicians that I get, you know, been able to talk to you. They haven't. They have a lot of them haven't experienced this level of sickness death in such a concentrated period of time over work, just the sheer stress of it. And then, you know, to be on the receiving end of a of this of this misinformation and so many people who have not availed themselves of what is almost a certain ability to prevent their own deaths, it's inc it's incredible frustration. And so where that's you know, we focus on trying to help there and have a lot of wellness and you know, data driven solutions. You know that have identified how to improve that situation and your friend, you know, unfortunately, is not unusual the impact that this has had on there was actually a episode on your site that was think was from March, or it was. It was it had to be later than that. It was like probably like May, may or June of two thousand and twenty, and it was former combat surgeons, right, these are these are guys who had worked in mash units, who would who had been there on the front lines, talking with these were essentially webcasts or podcasts, right, talking with physicians saying Hey, this is this is how you get through this stuff. And and it was one of the most powerful things to listen to for that reason, because it was just it was the voice of experience speaking into deep kneed, deeply felt me, and you didn't have to be you didn't have to have an enormous amount of imagination, even though I'm not a physician to say that, though, the physicians that were listening to...

...that, we're just like soaking it them. Yeah, you know, you hear this term storytelling a lot and our world I'm not really sure. I think people think it's like I'm going to tell you a story. It's not. It's it's really bringing to life people's experience, firsthand experiences like that and some of the time they're so incredibly powerful. That's just another thing that I've learned is like the power of storytelling and how it happens. I interviewed a resident at the time, someone I had known since he was a medical student and from the front mines a health system in I think it was in Brooklyn or Queens at the time, and like the height of the pandemic, and he was talking about what it was like and he just kind of at the side, just mentioned and I just, you know, came back. I'm sick with covid about any just went run on and I wasn't like skill enough at the time to like say way, way, meant. What did you just say? Like you meet, you've been at you've been out for two weeks, you're back working, like wow. But so that to me I was a huge learning experience in my own skill set of like being a better listener, which my brothers always say. Never say the word interview. It's always about a conversation. It's true, and this has been such a great one. You know, I'm I did want to share this one thing with you because I thought it was so powerful and it's one of those things. That's so like. If you're not in it, you would never know, you wouldn't necessarily think about this. But one of these surgeons from Vietnam in this podcast is talking about the fact he goes. I would bet that most of the the doctors listening to me right now have never, or hardly ever, had to do triage in a real, deep, meaningful sense, because he said, you know, this isn't just about you know, a few people in a car accident, right, this is actually like real structural Triaje, right, and in you're basically saying, I am acknowledging that some of these people are not going to make it. And he said there is a tremendous psychological cost that you, as a physician, will pay for that, right, and and I thought, you know what, I never thought of that, right, and never thought of that, but how true it was. Right. And so what it did for me, even though I was prepping for this, this conversation, right, is it really increased my level of empathy tremendously, just because I had information that I didn't have before, I had a thought that I didn't have before, and so I just I think that I just want to thank you for the for your time today, because it's you know, this is not a guys. I mean I know that. I know many of you who listen to our podcast. You're just going to you're probably your jaws on the ground for part of this conversation, todd it's just been a phenomenal conversation. It's been way beyond a podcast. So I'm glad. That's very nice. It's been a pleasure to be here and you know, to your point, you can imagine if your whole life is about making people better and the disconnect that happens when you have to make really, really difficult decisions you're so overwhelmed. My appeal out there, please, folks, get vaccinated, take care of yourself, follow the guidelines. There are people on the other end with families and their lives to their there. They're to take care of you, but we need to help them out. Absolutely. We are all interconnected, not even really an archipelago. Thanks so much. Thanks for having me. More the sooner you can optimize your marketing spend, the quicker you can start delivering clear, measurable value to Your...

Business. That's exactly where business GPS from. Proof analytics can help learn more at proof analytics DOT AI. You've been listening to accelerating value, where raw conversations about the journey to business impact help you weather the storm ahead. To make sure you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. Until next time,.

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