Accelerating Value
Accelerating Value

Episode · 1 year ago

Jennifer Brenner: The Greatest Risks for Marketers

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Jennifer Brenner, CMO at iland Cloud, speaks with us about value, risk, and marketing. Just five years ago, we considered it to be no major risk for our websites to be down for a day or so. Now, a minute can be too long.


We also talked about:

- Recent mindset shifts with regard to risk

- The CMO as investment manager

- The top risks for marketers to avoid

- The role of account-based research and strategic accounts


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Today, every budget approval is an investment deal. If you're a marketer, sales or business leader, you had to promise to deliver value and impact. Writing the wave to get there is hard enough. Finding your way through the storm is even harder. If you're looking for that path forward so that you don't wipe out. You've come to the right place. Let's get into the show. Hi, guys, it's marks to's with accelerating value, your weekly podcast that focuses entirely on what it takes to create value, to invest in it, to defend it, to prove it. How do you even think about it? You know, if you're a leader, you probably have a certain perspective on it. If you're someone further down the organization, you might have a little bit of a different perspective, and if you're a consultant or an agency or somebody like that, you're going to yet again have a different perspective. And it's so it is very much a you know where you sit determines where you stand. And yet there are absolutes about value. Right value in the end monetizes for somebody somewhere, otherwise it's not value. So we talked about this with lots and lots and lots of different kinds of people, different, you know, Chrros and CMOS and Crros and CEOS and CFOs, of all kinds of folks. Right, getting ready to interview a major cleric of all things, right, who is both the CEO of his religion in the United States but also a priest, right, and and talk about that kind of value. So today this is like really cool for me, right, because I have known Jennifer Brenner for a very long time, probably longer than either one of us would really likely specify. And and she is now the CMO of a company called island, and some of you, if you're into cybersecurity and all that kind of stuff, you know island. They are a deliver value and kind of two major ways, I guess you could say. Upside, which, course, you know everyone gets excited about, and also they really help you mitigate the downside risk associated with being online, which is a whole different kind of value. Right. And you can say, well, how do I prove the value of something that didn't happen? Well, I think she probably has an answer for that. So, Jim Glad. Thank you. Glad to be here and always going to take connect with you again. So let's talk about value here and we'll start from the point of view of risk, because the two are inextricably bound up together, right, and in many, many, many instances, and also in your particular case, you're really helping customers deal with that issue. Right. It's sort of like you're a pain reliever that converts to a vitamin. So talk about that. I've loved, love to hear kind of your thoughts on that, because that's not only a practicality, that's a philosophical that's a true point of view on your customer, that's the understanding of your customer. So let's start there. You know, I think that it's been really wonderful for me to be in the business of disaster recoveries, of service, helping people to prepare...

...for things like ransomware attacks and on all of these things in a time period in our culture where this is such an issue, right, there are attacks coming from kind of all sides of the spectrum, and so being abonial, well, yeah, well, and being able to work with our customers, you know, to help them to mitigate those risks is really important, especially when we're talking about online and how much of everyone's business is conducted online these days. So it's a wonderful perspective to have and and to be able to hear people, feel their pain and help them to prepare and an in cases where the something happens, something unforeseen and major risk, to be able to be there and to solve those problems is actually really satisfying. I know when I say that I speak for everyone at island. We really love being able to either protect people in the first place so that something never happens or when, when the unthinkable does happen, me able to come in and get businesses back up and running. But, like I said, right it's a mirror to our current culture where people are just, I feel like we're sort of going from like one thing to the next in terms of attacks and issues and major catastrophes and knowing how to like be resilient, you know, both inside of yourself, inside of Your Business and inside of your teams. So that's that perspective of having that be a major component of our business and we also do, you know, just regular infrastructure as a service cloud, but within that there's a specialty called disaster recoveries, a class as a service where we're helping people to back up their business assets and have disaster recovery plans in the cloud, which is a great place to be when you're in trouble. Absolutely. So you're kind of combining fire prevention with fire fighting. Yes, how do you? So, how do you? I mean this is not a new question right at all. But how do you prove a negative words in this case? How do you prove the value that you of the fact that you were able to prevent something from happening? Well, you know, kind of like I said, you know, think about the way that our cultures change, and maybe maybe it's that we always were starting from one catastrophe to the next as a as a society, but now we just have the needs to report on everything and anything. So now we know, or we're more aware of, all of the risk. You know, ransomware and cyber attacks, which is one example of a catastrophe that could happen in a business, is life. Yeah, that's a fairly new concept, but people stealing from you is not a new concept, right. You know, it's just water gate online. And so you know, catastrophes have always happened, but our ability to deal with them and where they happen has changed and our knowledge of them, in our awareness of them has changed. Right, we have instant access to information and, you know, the voices, the people that are able to report what's happening has changed. So many more people have platforms and voices to get things to the surface. But from a you know, business perspect of, you know, there's a whole new sort of gammeut and and and in our business they got. It runs from like the new world of cybersecurity all the way back to the old world of what do you do if you're in a city that by a hurricane and you're backing up all your data onto like disc when you really should have been in a data center and maybe of a data center on each side of the country and and those sorts of things. So it's all the way from, you know, biblical level catastrophes to current a sort of cyber security issues of things that happen online that are...

...that are problems that, of course, right like the biggest goal and and the most important thing, regardless of the type of thing that you're in, is to keep companies moving forward. So I feel like it's maybe not so hard to prove the value of it in today's culture because there's just so much visibility and so, you know, to get into to sit down with customers and say look, there could be in a huge weather event or there could be a you know, you could be attacked by cyber criminals. Like it doesn't take people. It's not hard for people to imagine those scenarios or, in the alternative, to know someone within their realm of associates that's been touched by them. Right. So, and I think, I think to you know, there's been, unfortunately, so many at those kinds of events where the costs are now very, very well understood, absolutely right, and and also, from an actuarial point of view, the likelihood of it happening is also pretty well understood. Absolutely. You know, when you and I were at BMC software, right, this was a while ago, they one of the things that they were just starting to bring out at that time was they had been able to since when a server was going to fail and warn you. Right, but when they got to the point where not only could they sense it and warn you, but they could actually take take automatic steps to prevent it from faith right, and the value of that was kind of exponential relative to everything else, and that was even before a lot of ai got into the mire. Do you are you seeing a lot of ai coming into your offering? Maybe it already is in you're offering. How's that kind of working in terms of the overall approach? Yeah, so I feel like definitely people are employing artificial intelligence in their solutions and we're providing the infrastructure right the alternate, we're, you know, using SASS recovery to make sure that all of their information and all of these edge technologies or backed up and ready to go. So it's about the you know, the the power behind it, the horse power behind it, but definitely it matters. And one of the things you said that I thought was interesting, as you're talking about how, the old days, right, they would alert you to a server or some kind of issue. You know, in the current climate, you know, we're talking about businesses that need to feel back and recover their systems in seconds and minutes, right, as in the old days, where we were talking about hours and days before they could get people back online. And, of course, what you were talking about is that actually playing the advantage of the cloud right, because you never have to be in that situation where you're worried about a server because someone else is a monetary and taking care of that server, making sure that you're your data, your applications are really, really safe and secure and accessible. So what where do you see the issue of risk going into the future for your customers? And you talk to them and they say, Hey, this is awesome, but you know, we're we're kind of already having these kinds of thoughts about these kinds of risks. We're what does that look like? How's that? Where's that going? I think they're just, you know, gooding, going to go further and deeper into planning, right, further and deeper into what our disaster recovery plans. Let's be sophisticated about them. What are how are we backing up our data and applications? Let's be sophisticated about that. Let's be thoughtful, because it's, like you said, now, whereas before, you know, year, twenty years ago, they were like well, maybe something will happen, or maybe there was a lot of you know, maybe the it people thought well, the servers are within my reach, so I'm good. I'm the DAD is within my reach, so I'm good. But now, as as organizations have evolved just enormously over the past twenty years in terms of sophistication about the applications within...

...their company and their reliance on the cloud to run their businesses. It's, you know, increasingly about having a more sophisticated and deeper and more thoughtful plan around protecting your business, protecting your applications and just making sure that you have the systems in place to keep your business continuously running. Right. I mean in the old days, people, years and years ago, people could have gotten away with their website being down for a day and that kind of stuff happened. Remember in the old days. Obviously that can never happen now you can never have your website or some other parts, other digital function within your business completely offline. So I think it's just sort of switching the thinking to what does it take from my business and my company to be continuously running and available to customers to serve their needs? So I think they measure risk in that way. It's a shift from Nice to have to must have, and I would say that shift happen probably even five or six years ago. Right, great to must have. Must be on, always available. We are never going to let our business, you know, go down, and so that requires some more sophisticated planning. So if we kind of, I mean it's really hard today to do this because marketing rides on a backbone of tech, right, but if we kind of just think about it more operationally and philosophically, what have you learned as a CMO in helping customers grapple with these issues that we've just been discussing, and how do you then apply that into your world of marketing? Right? So, for example, long time ago when I was when I was just trying to figure out analytics and all this kind of stuff, I would go sit in the customer experience areas of HP or BMC or whatever and listen to Cio's talk about what I recognized were actually a lot of the same issues that I had as a communications leader or as a marketing leader, and I listen to how they solved their problems and kind of stole some of those ideas and apply them to marketing. So that's kind of that's kind of where where my where I'm coming from. How do you think about that as a CMO today? Well, you know, even I talked about this before, but for me, like HIVT and thinking that really really made a big difference in my career and how I view marketing is really understanding that CMOS are investment managers, right. We are taking the marketing funds available in a company and we are figuring out and giving advice back to our senior management on how to spend that for the best return on investment. And so within that, whenever you're starting to look at something as an investment, well then obviously want to measure the risk. But then you have the added complexity of Hey, we need to be trying some new things and there's we're not going to be able to accurately assess the risk of every single marketing activity that we go into. And I think for me, you know, a couple of things. One, shifting the way that I talk about marketing with my team in terms of, you know, what's the Uri, what's the risk assessment? You know, using the terminology of an investment manager has helped just to refrain how we look at it as a team and really really, really positive way. But then also saying and working, you know, with senior management, not just in the company I'm currently and but in all the companies I've worked in to understand where. Okay, we're going to go try this thing. It's pretty risky, you know. There's a fifty percent or greater chance that it may or may not develop anything, but we fully we need to give it a shot or we're going to ear mark a portion of...

...our marketing budget and spend to try new things that may or may not this are going to be kind of things were investing in, just as you would look at that, at an investment portfolio, and having that language and that sort of thought process has been really, really helpful to me, to my team, to the people I work with, into the people that are funding and measuring what we do. So within that we're always looking at risk, right. What is the risk? How can we mitigate the risk? In a lot of times in marketing it's about putting an activity or an idea into a laboratory and testing at first and gaining sort of confidence as you go, the way that you would do with with any sort of risk in your in your life or in business. I obviously really agree with that. Let me let me ask you this question, based on your experience, your learnings, what are the greatest risks to a marketer or marketing program like, wouldn't you really like? If you're going to stack rank risk, right, what's at the top and how does it flow? I mean, I think that obviously the number one risk is that you're going to burn money and effort in areas that are not helpful to the bottom line, right, so that's that's sort of number one. Number two, the second greatest risk is that you're going to make mistakes that will hurt the reputation of the company that you're working with or hurt their brand awareness or perception. Right, that you might dilute the brand by engaging in too many things that are that are whisking and unhelpful, or that you'll just sort of lose focus, away from the focus, you know, in terms of moving the company forward, in terms of forward progression. It's easy to lose focus. And then the sort of the last thing that I might mention in my list is being able to even when you've got a great marketing plan and a great strategy and a great message, what happens in the you know, all teams is that as it goes into the ten million different places that you put it in, right into social media and digital advertising, an email and webinars, and all the different things you're placing this message into that it begins to degrade. For me, that's something I really pay a lot of attention to and and it's, for me, one of the greatest challenges. How you take a team of folks who are making judgment calls on your strategy and your message and how to translate that into ten million different places and maintain the quality of that and I maintain the quality message and make sure they intent of your message stays the same, and that's also a talents that I relishould like trying to solve. It's a problem that I love to trying to figure out. So you know. But you know, I've been in organizations before where I've joined and they were focused on awareness over driving value to the sales bottom line, and I find that when you focus on that too much, you get too far away from the core mission of the company. Right. Every reason business to try to move forward, to try to progress the mission of the company and and to grow, and when you get too far away from that, then you lose focus. I think that's actually one of the biggest risk is getting too far away from what actually drives sales. And I've also found that when you go into organizations and just sort of of tweak that a little bit, get everybody focus back on how a deal actually gets done in a company. It's amazing, you know, how quickly you can realign what's happening in a in any marketing environment. Do you think about so this goes back to the whole investment portfolio. Do you think about your marketing investments in in light of different time horizons that you're expecting them to pay off? Absolutely Different Time Horizons? And I should say, just as a caveat to this whole conversation, I've really been lucky in that every company that I worked in, from BBC to Virtue Stream, which was a Dell e MC technologies company, to island, I'm always been really lucky to...

...have senior managers who were interested in not only, you know, helping the sales team, but also in furthering the mission of the company. So they were willing to devote marketing resources and effort to things that were right for society, right for our teams, in addition to having a focus on the bottom line. Right. So so when those are kind of a place and you're really kind of free to go back and think about the bottom line and and how you're going to position your team and your resources to the right things. But yes, we do think about things in different sort of so, and I bring that out because it's not just about timing right a short and long term investment, but it's also about what are the types of things that you're investing it and what are your expectations around it? Right. So, like I said at the beginning, you might go into something and say this may not really be a profit varying exercise, but it's the right thing to do. or it may not be a profit very exercise but it brings awareness and it helps it and it helps our teams or our corporate reputation or whatever it is it we're working on. So it's dividing them into those different buckets and I have found in my own experience at working with senior leadership when you can put it into those buckets and say hey, we're going to do this event and had it's probably not going to generate any revenue, but it's about X, Y or Z goal. You know, everybody can really get on board with that and understand it. And yes, there are a short term and long term and really understanding. You know, how long does it take you, after you've planted that initial seat of getting a contact and getting to know someone, to generate a relationship with them? And for me, I think that's kind of what I try to specialize in as a marketing leader, is long term relationships. Right, we're going to have a relationship with this customer for many years if we do it right. And so what does that look like? Well, it's value out of communications, that we're not just constantly trying to sell it people, but that we're developing a meaningful engagement in the events that we do, in the communications we send now, in the way that we interact, that it's not just what's good for us, but what's good for the relationship and for customers. So how do you so? Realizing that for a lot of people this is more of a gut thing than an analytical thing, but if you, if someone were to talk to you and ask you a question about how long should I wait to see if it's working before I cut it off right, how would you answer that question? Be It's sort of like, sort of like the decision that that some people had last week to get out of a really major company as investors right, they felt like that they had gotten in, that it, that they had given it the good old college try, and then, according to their time schedule, right, it hadn't worked out, and so they was some big, huge trades on this one company last week. How do you? How do you? How would you answer that question if another CMO was sitting or across the table from you and said, how do I know? Like, how long do I let the the thread out right before I go? Now I'm yanking it back now. Well, I think you know there's no one good answer to that. But like it really gets down to you, and this is why would people get to the semong level? They generally are going to stay in one industry because by that time you've got, you know, usually around twenty years of experience in that industry and you've kind of seen a large gamut of things that have been tried. So you have a sense and how that will play out. And then the other piece of it too, which I can't go over stress, is that CMOS have got to understand the fundamentals of the business and so, because otherwise, how can you call the ball? How can you call the ball on how something's going to play out. If you don't, you know, do you understand the average sales cycle?...

How long is it? You know what are the and even if you understand it, does it marry back to the corporate goals or is the company shifting positions? Do you understand all the different pieces? Yeah, one of the things that was great for me personally, this actually changed my career, and you were a part of it, was when I was at BMC and was working in public relations with you. You know, we did the earnings releases and in that we really had to understand the fundamentals of how that business ran and that was a real eye opening experience for me, and you know it's great. I would natural curiosity for these things. So for me that sort of the fun part is digging in and understanding the business. But when you have all that information right, I understand how this business runts, I understand the revenue, I understand where we think the upside potential is in this business, then you can start to call the ball. And when you combine that with twenty something years of experience of seeing a lot of different activities, we know that in the tech industry a activity always works, then you can have a sense of like hey, I'm going to let this thing go a little bit longer, I'm gonna keep going because I know it'll eventually pay off, etc. So one of the the new things that we've had a sort of really think through in terms of that, in terms of like how long we're going to play at it, is the concept of account based marketing. Everybody's an account based marketing expert, but everybody has a different opinion on what that at is. But really getting it and trying to look at what strategic accounts should be, where your sweet spot is, though, that wasn't a marketing practice. That takes a lot of patience. I will say, though, it is really paid off right, like that's a that's a a new way of looking at marketing. Right, the old way, or the the adjoining way, is, I'm going to cast a really big net, and that was kind of like how we did in the old days. We're constantly casting a big net. Now we're still doing all of that, but we've added to it that we're going to do a tremendous amount of account based research, and that's the kind of work that you do hand in hand, painstakingly with sales and and it takes a long time. It took a long time when we first started working in that arena to make it work. And but when it does right, it's a it's a hundred percent prob guess that you took. You basically took a sub set of your accounts that were strategic or whatever. Right, and and and so you kind of created a segregated your list and some of them get the ABM and some of them don't. Right. Well, I think too, it's like identifying new accounts that you can go after that match the sweet spot or your ideal customer profile. So you know, fifteen years ago, when we we were doing this kind of stuff, you would make your ideal customer profile and then you would create like this little person from it, and then you would create like emails where you were guessing about how you should write to bomb your customer. And now, like, I'm glad that's behind us, because we were just guessing. But now you're actually going to go out and find a hundred bobs and you're going to put together the marketing and the messaging and the approach that company that really fits them. But like that's based on having an ideal customer profile that it's way more sophisticated than anything we were doing back in the days, you know, years ago, when we were just trying to like write funny emails that would make Bob Happy. Yeah, you know, it was one of the things. I mean, obviously we didn't realize that the time. Certainly didn't have a name, but when I was so I was one of the four global leads at HP before I knew you and and and in public sector health and ED. That was one of my roles for a while. We worked with sales teams on certain strategic counts. You know, could be the IRUS, could...

...be, you know, whatever you're supposed to service, and we discovered all the ways that the decision makers actually got their information and most of the time it actually wasn't what you thought it was. Yeah, so there were actually a lot of like agency newsletters and things like this that technically you weren't supposed to be able to pitch story into, and so we had to kind of like work it a little, little differently. But but it was all about not only presenting a particular point of view but building cohesion around all or between all of the decision makers within an agency relative to this big honking decision that they were getting ready to make that obviously you wanted a part of. And and so, even though we didn't realize at the time, it was really account based communications, is what really was right and it were great. It worked great. Yeah, doing that kind of deep research, really working to look in across your existing customers and look across what you're doing and who that ideal customer is and building out new profiles, understanding what they care about. To your point, like we're where are they from a wrist standpoint? Technologically, that's one aspect of what we might look at doing that, like that kind of stuff gets me out of bed in the morning right because it's so wonderful to be a little to understand these companies better, to understand our customers better and to know them at that level. So you know, even though that was a very, very long tail marketing investment, when a BM really became a thing, it's paid off and you just sort of in that sense, you know, did we have a lot of historical data to prove that that was going to really be the thing now? But I think in our gacts we knew, though, because we were getting so much closer to the customer that it was the right way to go. All right, so I got one last question for you. It's more personal. Oh great, and it kind of goes to the way that people prioritize, you know, longer cycle versus shorter cycle and all this kind of stuff. Right, when you think about yourself as a parent, as a friend, as a member of the community, how do you think of yourself is adding value? What is your intention run adding value across different time horizons like? And how do you understand, as a parent, for example, because you could argue there's some real there's some comparisons here between what you do for living and that? Right, how do you know that you've been successful before it's obvious you've been successful. Well, I think it's kind of like when we talked it. For me, I think, and I say this is a personal answer. You know, all of these answers are based on just my experience, but it's not doing the research again, because you know, what we tend to do, I think, as adults, is parent our children and the way that we always dreamed of being parented. Right, my mom never let me have sodas in the house. So therefore those are refrigerator full of sodas. Right, we try to feel again that's a great wood. That's all in our own lives, right, what we really wanted and what we dreamed of. And then there's that moment as a parent, and right now I have two adult children. I have an eighteen year old to to twenty year old. Were you realize, like I need to figure out what this person needs, what this person value, what my child really what would mean something to them? I'm really good at supplying them with things that fill the holes in my own heart, but that's obviously not a will in their heart. You know, I don't think my children are sitting around crying about sodas in the fridge. And you know, when we were growing up, right, our parents...

...would we didn't get to have a soda that was in that was there was cows in the fridge and you better not touch them, right. So that was something that I wanted growing up. was just has some cool things to get them to my friends. But you know, I mean like for me and my kids. You know, a good example of that is they were really, really, really wanted a dog and I thought I was not a dog person at all, and but they just kept revisiting the topic. It's I had to listen to them and figure out. You know, I know what I wanted as a kid. It's not what they want. What they want is a dog. So we ended up buying a dog and it really met every hope and dream I could have ever had. You know, I was super reluctant to do it, but it it brought out a side of my kids that was just so wonderful to see the empathy in the carrying and the all those attributes that you really would love to seeing your own children right. And then, of course we end up getting another dog because that was such a great experience. So, you know, I think it's about trying to meet people where they are, number one and number two, give them what they really want. Wouldn't they value it's great, great, profound truth. They're right. There's a there's a wellknown book or the opening line is it's not about you. Yes, right, and and I think that that is arguably the hardest thing for any of us to learn and in arguably the most important. Yes, it is, and it's sort of something you have to keep relearning. Yes, that's me. I own that comment about me. Yeah, there the people around me. I will say this. You have through my working career I'm run into some individuals that were so just respectful and I mean I I can't ever say enough good things about the founders of Ireland. They're wonderful people and you know, I noticed when I started to work with them and some and other people from other companies, there's this kind of cadence of respectful language where they always kind of gave the other person the benefit of the doubt, right, like you may have already done this, but what's the status on this? Or, you know, just trying to always give people the benefit of the doubt in their in their explicit language. And that was such a powerful tool once I saw that and started to copy it in terms of working with people and helping people to be more productive and to help people to bring value to what they were doing. Just just that simple act of just really affecting a respectful tone that assumed that everybody was out to do the right thing. And you know, I came up in business in them s and two thousand right, we were all in there together and that wasn't necessarily the tone of business in those days. But that change is it's amazing and it really changed how people respond to me as a leader and I'm, you know, of course, super grateful to the leaders that I had that sort of taught me that. Now I and, you know, flipping it back for just a second, back into into marketing, right, I think that the biggest mistake that I see and I've made is talking about what I thought was important and what I wanted to talk about and what I thought the upside was and all this kind of stuff, as opposed to talking about what the other other folks in the room metaphorically and literally wanted to talk about. And in so many instances our audiences are captivated as any is,...

...a lot of people are. They're captivated with messaging about new cool upsides and all this kind of stuff, but particular when it's related to work, they are obsessed, and that is that is not an overstatement. With risk, right, with fear. I just did a survey over the weekend on Linkedin and and it was really it was I got the idea for it just because I was watching other people surveys and what was going on and there were all these people view it, clearly viewing the survey. There were a very, very small percentage of those who were actually responding to the survey. And yet there was kind of in between those two points were a bunch of people who were more than happy to comment below right on other aspects of this whole thing. And yet he still didn't vote right, which was sort of like was sort of also like watching the American political theme in miniature, right, but nevertheless right. And but one of the things. So I did this survey and I said, hey, why do you do this? Now? I had to pick some choices and the first one was, you know, lack of trust, and the second one was something else, and I can remember what they all were now. And but I said, you know, comment, just tell me that, you don't need to like pick one, and got lots of response to it and it all boiled down to I don't trust most of the people who were sponsoring these surveys. Interesting, right. And so then I drilled down into that, you know, and they're like, so, this is a this is a platform. Everything that happens on this platform is being tracked and it's been collected somewhere, and if I say the wrong thing somewhere, somebody is going to use that against me in a hiring decision or something like that. Right, and I like cheese. I mean, man, you know, and I'm not asking a judgment on whether it's right or wrong, I'm just commenting on how intense this feeling was, and so one of the things that I've started to really do is speak into that. Yeah, I mean, think about it, right, in terms of trust, is one of the most valuable things that any kind of company or individual can possess in today's world. Right, like it's they can't go check you out at your place of business anymore. They can't, you know, find all of the physical remnants of you. All they can find is your digital profile, and so trust, is a part of a brand for a company or for an individual is, you know, some of the highest currency we have in today's society. And how do you establish that trust, you know, within your sphere as a person or as a company? It's a huge question and it's super important to figure out, you know, what are those pieces that will help people to trust you in a really interesting sort of way? Right, your whole premise at island is press based. Right, absolutely, and that's something that we take super seriously. Island has compliance officers on staff which is sort of differentiator for cloud companies, because that's how seriously we take it, you know, and and it's a huge thing. It's something that we're constantly talking about and in earning our customers stress and keeping their trust is incredibly important and you know, that helps me to learn as an individual, right, as being in this business where that's so important. How do you establish that? And you know, you and I dealt with that...

...a BBC. Right, we would to the analyst community and, you know, show them the different aspects of the company in order to get their endorsement to build trust. Right, there's all sorts of ways that we build trust and being attented to that has taken up a lot of both of our careers, but right it's been a fun pursuit to learn what that means. Absolutely. Thank you so much. Yes, thank you conversation. Yes, I enjoyed it. Thank you. The sooner you can optimize your marketing spend, the quicker you can start delivering clear, measurable value to Your Business. That's exactly where business GPS from. Proof analytics can help. Learn more at proof analytics DOT AI. You've been listening to accelerating value, where raw conversations about the journey to business impact help you weather the storm ahead. To make sure you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. Until next time,.

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