Accelerating Value
Accelerating Value

Episode · 1 year ago

How Marketing Can Better Drive Revenue


Marketing is essential to any organization’s bottom line…

But it’s no secret that it’s often difficult to attribute its ROI.

So, how do you make sure you’re getting the most from your marketing mix?

To help answer that eternal question, I invited Lance Werling, Director of Worldwide Revenue Operations at Medigate, onto the show to share his marketing expertise.

Join us as we discuss:

  • The lag time between marketing efforts and results
  • The best ways to handle historical data
  • How to get Marketing, RevOps and the C-Suite speaking the same language 

Keep connected with Accelerating Value on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

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Today, every budget approval is an investment deal. If you're a marketer, sales or business leader, you had to promise to deliver value and impact. Writing the wave to get there is hard enough. Finding your way through the storm is even harder if you're looking for that path forward so that you don't wipe out. You've come to the right place. Let's get into the show and we're back. This is mark stuice with accelerating value, your weekly podcast on all things having to do with the way that you and I create value in our jobs. This is really this podcast has evolved over time to include about seventyzero viewers. So thank you very much for that. And I think that one of the reasons why that is the case is that there's a lot of people in their careers who are making a transition between a very tactical definition of value. Eating. Hey, you know, my boss gave me this goal, you know this KPI, and I, you know, either fell short or I attained it or I needed it. And now all of a sudden, you know, you may be a director, senior director, you might give vp somewhere and you're starting to have conversations with more senior people who are defining value a little bit differently. They're asking you for a business case, they're asking you for hey, you know, I want to give you a certain amount of money to spend on this, whatever that is, and I want to know what kind of return I'm going to get on this and how long is it going to take for me, for the company to realize that return? Things like that. So we talked to a whole bunch of different kinds of people. We're very horizontal in that sense, but right now we're talking to a lot of marketing people and also a lot of rev ops people, and today we are talking with Lance whirling. Lance, how are you? I am well, Mark. How are you today? Awesome, Lance, welcome. Tell everybody a little bit about yourself. Thank you. Thank you. Hello everyone. Lance whirling been in revenue operations for the better part of what I would call around twelve or thirteen years. Started out. Yeah's, you're a prioneer. You're right here. Yeah, you know it well, and I say that the better part of because I think revenue operations has been something that's that's already been around in some way, shape or form, but maybe hasn't been specifically called that. You know, I've been in and out of sales ops, commercial APPS, you know, you name it, all the way up into maybe about eight or so years ago when it actually officially became revenue operations, and even now, right. I mean it continues to evolve. I mean there I run into people who say they do vops or really just doing sales ups, and then I run into people who were who were like yeah, I know it. My world includes sales ops, marketing ops, customers success ops and other stuff. Right. So it's still very much a thing that's evolving. Right, it is, and I read it on Linkedin, I see it in other posts here and on podcast all the time around. You know, you're a revops leader. What does that actually mean? And I think you know the the challenge is and has always been around how do you a get these groups to collaborate but be how... you focus on all of these different functions within the go to market, kind of customer life cycle, if you will, in a way that that you're not kind of solely focusing on sales or CES or marketing? And that's that's been, you know, the challenge throughout several of my roles is how do I drive that value in an even way that doesn't feel like it's slanted, right, because I think historically the CRO is more sales driven, in my experience anyways. So you know, how do you how do you communicate that that value, show, show that support to all the teams that are really important in the kind of Rev ops I'm brob yeah, absolutely. Yeah, actually, I just recorded another podcast with Scott Brinker, MR chief MARTEC himself. Right, he's he's arguably the I mean he has a real job at hub spot, but he has done more to build the MARTEX space than a lot of people and one of the things that he has really started focusing on lately is the idea of big ops. Right. So he's sort of leveraging big data, that whole lingo, right, but he's talking about big ops and he's talking about the fact that, well, exactly what you were just saying, right, that that there has to be this function that represents everybody, that coordinates everybody, that exercises a certain amount of governance in terms of establishing how all this actually knits together and how we optimize our go to markets then across these different major areas. Right, so not just within sales or within marketing or whatever, but across that whole piece right and do it as an honest broker right, and I think that that is that's really one of the biggest parts of his argument is that, you know, people played politics on this whole thing for very, very long time and that the sea suite just wants some freaking answers. And the politics. How do you see it? I mean, what do you and where do you think we are on in you know, if we kind of accept Scott's construct for just for the sake of this conversation of nothing else, right, where do you think we are on that? So I love the thought of big data. I feel like that's that's kind of a given. The question in my mind is, no matter how much day do you have, are you tracking the right amount and the right type? And also how how good is it right garbaging, garbage out? Type of conversation. So there's so many things that I think of, and I don't want to take this son a crazy tangent, but you know, around the kind of what you were saying I really have been thinking about, at least lately. You going back to how do we get all these teams to collaborate more effectively, like what is our goal? So I like to see and understand, you know what, what numbers do we need to hit, whether it's in the current fiscal year and few and future physical years, where we taking the business and then back into okay, well, what does that mean? Where do we need to be? And actually my last the last company I work for, was really the first time I've seen where marketing, sales rev ups and customers success all aligned on that goal, which is, how do we get to this revenue number? Where do we think we can generate the right amount of leads, given our sales cycle is longer and we know that we're already at the end of the current year, because at that point the sales planning process was relatively new and delayed.

Is You know, the question we're asking is, okay, we we don't have enough time to really drive the marketing lead engine. So how do we get marketing to increase our sales velocity and enable our customer success function to drive cross selling and expand our business? Because, you know, net new customers weren't going to be able to really drive towards our revenue. So how can we grow our assisting customer base and things that they use, in addition to taking existing pipeline that was already in play and trying to get that through the sales process faster. So I think from that perspective that's further than maybe I ever would have anticipated it would be. I think we as revops leaders, always would like the rosy picture to be true, but it's not always true. There's a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes, a lot of manual efforts and a lot of to your point, you know, politics, positioning to get everybody on the same page and marching to the via the same drum. And you know, when you don't have that, that push for everybody to really care that first about their own numbers, which is really the truth when you when you boil it down, you know, getting everybody to speak the same language and align on a path to meet those numbers. As an example, it was really nice to see that play out in a way that was really got me to think like yes, this really can be done, it's not impossible. So so let me let me ask this kind of question then. Yes, so you know, sales teams will argue that they have had to be predictive for a very long time. Right they they do sales forecasting and then they're they're basically held to account for their performance against that forecast. How do you feel that the other parts of the puzzle are doing on that? Like how are you seeing marketing in your organization? How is marketing forecasting, predicting and then and then coming up and doing an update against that prediction? How is customer success doing the same thing? So more recently, what I'm seeing is that like basically back into okay, this is how much on average we close as a marketing team. Right, speaking on be aff of the marketing leader. So if we understand that this is our success rate, then we can back into okay. How often? How many leads do we are marketing qualified leads to we need to generate and then going even back, further back from there, how many leads do we need to come in in general? So you know, finally, and I've worked in some some you know, unique marketing setups in the past where or worked with some unique marketing departments in the past where they only care about their marketing numbers, right, and I don't. I don't necessarily it's not a bad thing. You have to worry about your own KPIS and how you're how you're defining your success. But what it really drove was so silo right, because they were saying, Oh, well, we generated thousands of leads and in reality it was like thousands of people that signed up for a call or a confidence and that's not really a lead, right. There was also, I'll go one step further, lands I think it actually I mean, you're being very nice and there's no problem with that, but I'm going to step out there and say that that's actually terrible, right, because none of us get to define our own success. And so any organization, marketing or otherwise, but does that is not operating honestly and not operating in the real world, right, because folks who are paying their bill, right, which is the rest of the business, they have a definition of success. That is an absolute...

...must for marketing or cut sales or anyone else to listen to and to meet. So, yeah, I mean, I that's where I am on anyway. Yeah, no, I agree with you, you know, because I work with everybody I want like. The reality is, I care about making sure that we're growing revenue, right, and how do we do that in the most efficient way, removing friction and as fast as possible. So in a lot of times when I've had the conversations with the marketing leadership, with kind success leadership, it comes down to definitional differences. Right, how these marketing folks to find success? I would actually compare it to a salesperson in that that term closed lost, right, it's just like no, I don't I don't want it to look close lost, because that means that I'm not doing my job right, I'm not winning business for the company and you know, I try to stay away from those words or approach them in a way provide context around them in a way that helps sales, helps marketing, helps kind success understand that these things are okay. It's fine to lose a deal. It's okay if this isn't really a lead, because this is the only way you're going to know what impact you can have on the business going forward and where you need to tweak it so that you can sign up for a number that's realistic and you know, pass that along to sales to help them out. As an example is if you know truthfully what you can expect throughout that process, whether it's the lead management process to sale cycle, and whatnot. So how do you how are you thinking about like, for example, do I think everybody is, you know, more than aware of the fact that marketing doesn't have an instantaneous effect? Right? So this is the whole idea of time lag. How are you dealing with the idea that, for example, that it's this year's mql or whatever we want to call them now, right, that is next year's deals and that there's not this quarter by quarter lock step alignment that exists? How are you currently thinking about that? It's a really good question. So I've always advocated for the the fact that there isn't a perfect response to that question. On behalf of the marketing team. I say that because a lot of times people say, Oh, you know, market team, are going to give you this amount of money and we want to see exactly what it does. Well, the reality is it might not do anything for a year, maybe two, maybe three years first before that comes to fruition. Right. So it's really like it's this thing that's extrapolated. So it's not a perfect mechanism, but I think if you start tracking not only where your leads are coming from, how they flow through the process, meaning from you know, initial legend to to closure, whether it's one or loss, and you understand everything that's going on in between timing and you continue to track that data. Then you know that helps you communicate with your with your executive team and investors, whoever. Anyway, the goal right to communicate with them and help them understand here's what we're dealing with, this isn't going to be an immediate thing, here's why and here's what we're seeing. And if you invest this money now, it's a lot more likely to be you know, here's where we're going to see this. But, oh, by the way, in between that we're also going to use that money to help increase sales philocity, which I think is where you see most of the movement right, which is current pipeline and flight and marketing team helping to drive those deals for the closure through like backend kind of nurturing, if...

...that makes sense. A lot of times, unless you're, you know, under RFPKNA silence type of deal, you could market to your customers in a way that's very unique. Way I've seen it done is, you know that at its simplest form is identifying contacts. That a strategic tactical in operational level, because all those different people might potentially be part of a buying process on the prospect side. So you know, sending messaging out that aligns with those different varying levels within the organization that resonates with them. Or maybe, you know, maybe they see in they're like, oh, I gotta I got a call, you know, Lance at metagate and talk about this thing that we've been working no, I actually really agree with that. I mean, if you want to particularly if you want to drive deal expansion over time, right, that's a really, really effective way to do it. And I would say the second part of that is from a client success perspective, which I haven't even spoken to yet. I think there's a lot of opportunity and a good amount of companies for that. If you have a really good product, if you land that first product, well then you should be able to expand your business. The challenge you have is a lot of customer traditional customer success functioned. You know, they're there to advocate for the customer, drive value through the customer, but I would argue that they're not really sales people and they don't want to be sales people. Nor do you want them to be because you have to have that that specific, you know kind of break up between the two functions so that you don't marry. Yeah, I know, I think. Yeah. So one thing I've I've observed, particularly in proof right and our business, is that so we actually invested in customer success first for a lot of reasons. But one of the things that we have really seen over time is that, regardless of whether we kind of make it, you we formalize it or not, is not really the point from the customer point of view. Write. Our emphasis on customer success really controls our turn. And so at some point we started saying, you know what, we want our sales guys to focus on net new logos and we actually we commission customer success on renewals. No, I love that and you know, I would even take it a step further. Something we did at the company before metigate that I was at, is we compensated and variable compensation plan for the Client Success Team for qualifying cross opportunities. So, you know, I tell I talked about this perfect collaboration between the different stages, you know, Presales, post sales, of the process, and that was one thing that resonated very well because we're telling the client success team, Hey, you know, here's here's the ideal customer profile. Right, you have relationships, listen to them, talk with them, understand what they're doing. Maybe we you know, you ask a couple questions and if you hear any of these key words, you know, tap in the salesperson to reach out, even if you're not comfortable with having that conversation, saying hey, I'd like you to connect to you as Soandso, because I think there's opportunity here. You can even do that in the back end. But if you qualified that deal and it closes, we're going to give you a piece of that opportunity because we find that, because we've landed that deal already, that our ability to expand. You know, again talking about increasing sales velocity, meaning shorn shortening the sales cycle. That's where we see the most success and where we have the from a close rate perspective, to so you know, we really try to...

...enable our client success team and and at metigate. This is still relatively new. We haven't really fully built out the cross cell engine, if you will, because our our CS team is still building out kind of the traditional CS functions, right, but it's certainly on the horizon, as you know, as part of that deal, which is, you know, I would argue you. If you want to be that trusted advisor, which is what the cus group really is is meant to be, you have to really understand their business, what value they're getting today right out of the solution, so that you can retain and prevent churn. But also, you know, are there's potential to grow the footprint within that organization to help them get better at what they're doing. Right. It was regard to whatever solution you're selling, are you guys able to like if your ce sweet came to you and said, Hey, you know, we want to spend on making this up, because I've no idea what your budgets are, but we want to spend fifty million dollars next year on go to market. Right, how should we split that up among the three major components? Could you answer that question form? Well, for in my current company it wouldn't be that difficult. It would be a lot of headcount, like we need people in place, right, and then also how do we how do we take that head count and enable them to be successful? So I think that's where kind of the marketing, the marketing budget. So yeah, so, like one one thing that you hear a lot, which I haven't agree with, is that marketings mission is to help sales sell more product to more customers, faster and more profitably than they then sales could do by itself. Right. So that means that marketing is a multiplier on sales productivity. So you know, on this scenario, right, if they said, well, if the sea sweet said, Hey, we're going to spend x on on on sales guys, right, is there a multiple of that that you would say? Well, that then, if you're going to do x, then then marketing is X. or how do you think about that? It's a good question. So with marketing, it while say this, it's not necessarily a head count marketing, I think. I think you're kind of yeah, no, it's more program yeah, so, yes, but I think it all goes back to like where do we need to be as a business? Right, if we want to triple our business, there's only certain ways we can do that, right, right, depending on the addressful market that we have. Right, that's hiring more people, becoming more efficient at what we do or reaching more people through like a marketing engine or better, enabling the CS group to to, you know, help enable marketing right alongside of them. So I certainly think that there is a multiplier. What that is, I guess it's it depends right if I would say it's probably, you know, per salesperson, you know, marketings, maybe bringing in or driving to them. Maybe we'll call it seventy percent of their new leads, I would say, at least currently. But we also have a BEDR function that works alongside marketing. You know, we're asking our sales sales people to hunt, but they're also getting a lot of their leads fed to them from all these different marketing efforts. So are marked multiplier would probably be significantly higher. With that said, so when, how do you think that, if we kind of fast forward your two three years, what is going to be the relationship between REV OPS and marketing and then Rev...

...ops and the sea suite? That's a great question. I think it's from the from the perspective of market men. If if if everybody's kind of playing a game, that's fine it. Do you see revops is the coach or the UMPS? I think it's a little bit of both. I think it's almost like it almost feels like this. I don't know that justification is the right word. But for marketing they would lean on revops to understand. Okay, what like? What's all the data telling us and what can we realistically expect if we were to do this right, if we extrapolated the budget into how many leads we think and we can generate? How many opportunities and dollars, you know, are in our world do we think we're going to generate from this, regardless of time? Right? So, on the marketing front it might be more of Oro, I like a here's what we're requesting, here's why we're requesting it. You know, talk to Rev ops if you have any questions around the data. But this is this is, you know, legit. We trust the data. This is what we're saying on the front of the executive team. I think it almost is the same thing, right, which is they're going to want to see at a high level, how are we looking year over year, year to date, if you will, at a high level, what are we seeing? Are We on track with where we said we would be at? Do We, you know, REV ups, because we're we're connected, but we're a little bit separate. The conversation might be. Hey, you know gut feeling. It's that trusted advisor role. What do you think this is going and going to go if you were to predict the future right? Are we pump it too much money in? Are we not seeing what we thought? Do we need to tweak it a little bit, or do we need more money because we're having more success than we thought we were? For me, and I don't know if this is where you're thinking, I would take it, which is like, I think the analytics piece, the data, is the Lynch Pin, and then I would be kind of that third party, kind of like in between person helping, helping both of the groups explain to each other in a way that that translates both. I think that's really true. I think that the one of the things that the CEA suite we hear all the time is and I just want to know. I just want to know. I don't want to know what the truth is, I want to know how we can optimize the spind you know, like one of the things that we really saw a lot in two thousand and twenty and two thousand and twenty one was how impactful all the things that are not under our control are on the things that are under our control. Right. I mean you know, whether it's codd directly or ramifications of covid or you know whatever. Right, those two years were substantially different from each other and from two thousand and Nineteen and two thousand and twenty two is probably going to be different yet again. Right. So past isn't prolog anymore, right, and you can't say at you can't assume that what once worked still works. Right, and so that's the other thing that you know. So in my role, it prove I'm mainly your I'm talking to see sweet people and that's where I that's the number one thing I hear, right, is how do we get ahead of all the change and what the change means to us and what is? What it, you know, the knock on right of all that? Right, what is? What are we going to have to change ourselves in response to the changes that we don't control? Oh Yeah, my my last company, we I have pretty hard...

...with with covid and it basically wiped out everything. We had to completely change our commission plans. And then, you know, to your point, you get into two thousand and twenty one and then look at future years and the conversation was as we are looking at it like it was interesting. Like you can look at if you're talking with sales team, it's like reps a are doing really well our claiming, you know, Oh, you know, it's something that's like I've always been a good rep, but covid mess me up for or, you know, right, like others might say, covid mess my ability to sell right, like you can spin it anyway you want, but I think at the end of the day, and this is why I talk to the fact of like collaboration between the mat the go to market functions is because historically you would have those siload groups. So as a as an executive, you're talking with the marketing leader and you might be like, well, you know, you're giving me these random numbers and yeah, they look great, but I don't really see how that, you know, that lines up with what we're seeing on the sale side, like what's going on. So I'm always a huge advocate for that collaboration, using data and having open conversations to try to align the groups, because the more tight knit you are across the go to market functions, the better the story you have to tell. But also the better the information. And if you're going to an executive and you're saying, Hey, I need this fifty million or whatever that amount is, here's why, they're going to see. They're going to actually be able to see the start to finish, like the why behind it. And, you know, hopefully there's more of an appetite to to be accepting of that, whereas before it was kind of like, I'm not really sure, but okay, let's do it. Or you know, know we're not doing that. We got burned before. And to your point, because you can't really trust potentially prior your's data, nor will it be a good tell for future years because of how much things have changed. You really have to go on Gut and the best gut you have is is if you're able to kind of real time look at the data that's coming out and and have it realistic conversation with all the leaders of the of the go to market functions and talk through. Okay, what do you see in you know, what is everybody seeing? What do we need to do? Let's try some things out and I think more so than ever, at least in my world, I've been a part of a lot of different projects, a lot of different kind of one off like hey, let's get some money and let's throw it at this and to see if it works. You know that stuff doesn't happen historically. It's very regimented, and so there's been a lot more appetite to try new things to see how it's going to work because of that unknown. As things, you know, start to come to some more normalcy, if you will, you know, who knows when that's going to happen. So yeah, you know it's a I mean, I'll tell you what what actually does, really still work with historical data is that when you put historical data into a regression model, it will not only show you the cause and effect relationships that existed historically, right, but it will give you a forecast, prediction into the future. And then as you recompute, as the future becomes the present and you have new data and you recompute a lot of times, there will be a delta that starts to form between your original forecasts and your new actuals, and that is extremely illuminating because it gives you the really strong sense of okay, not only what kind of difference are we seeing, but if the model is includes things like not only your own stuff but outside stuff right that... don't control. It will start to show you why that Delta exists, why that gap exists, and it will start to say, okay, you know what, if you if you really need to go over here, if your goal is over here and you're right now, you're kind of heading off in a different direction, just like a GPS, the analytics will show you how to compensate for that get back on track, and that is where people will take something. It is very true, which is all data is historical and thus by itself is of very limited value. And then if something is really changed, it's even more limited value as data, right, but within the context of analytics it still has a lot of value. Oh, absolutely well, and I'm kind of in a unique position because the last this my current company and mant in my prior company, I was building out this function fresh right. So I like to mention this motion of pirates to maybe so a lot of a lot of startups are more on the pirate side of the spectrum, where you know it's really shooting from the hip. There's not a lot of process in place and when you're looking at forecasting and you're looking at competition and all this good stuff. What's possible, like it's slack, it's email, it's you know who heard what at this conference. And really what you want to get to is you know what is your total addressable market? How do you scale? And we're actually going through an exercise right now where we're simplifying our sales stages and we're redefining are what we call exit entring entrance criteria. So we're global company. The challenge we have is we have duplicative stages or stages that aren't being used in and not only are they may be outdated from from where we are today and how we're evolving going forward, but across your reps as an example, like nobody's using them the same way because all of that stuff has been lost translation over time. So you know, we're going through a big, big step right now simplifying stages, redefining what those criteria are so that no matter who's looking at the details, they can know that if you're in this stage, if you're identifying this particular forecast category for your confidence of closure by the closed date listed, that there's confidence and and also, you know, it gives people the ability that are looking at that pipeline, no matter where they sit in the organization, to really challenge the the Reps. and you know, this is very kind of rudimentary stuff, but it's very important in my mind because it helps you get better data. Yeah, lies the data. And to your point about the regression modeling. You know, something else I like to look at quite a bit is the success of your reps. and you know, maybe maybe you won't know exactly what you're going to close from a revenue perspective because of the unknowns, but if you know how your reps react, what their tendencies are, what your average time to close is, I think you can come up with pretty good assumptions around what you could potentially close with some level of certain me and but also, you know, get the cut through the noise, I think I mentioned earlier. Yeah, I think covid is given reps a lot of wiggle room to, you know, whether it's to coast or whether it's to crush the depending on where you fall on that spectrum. But ultimately, if you're a sales leader in your having to talk with your team or understand okay, well, is it really covid or is it my team. You can get down to that information pretty quickly. Right, I agree. So let... as my final question here. You know, I know one of the things that people are really interested in when they listened to a podcast like this is hearing you talk about a big epiphany that you had in your career, like something that you know, like one week or one day. We these epiphanies kind of happened at different rates of speed, right, but at one moment you were in the dark and thinking like everybody else and then all of a sudden, whatever that means, you had a blinding flash of insight and you were never the same again in your career. What tell us the story about one something like that? Yeah, so I would say it was my my jump into more like repops, theatership, which actually started with a sales force admin roll. So one of the best managers I ever worked for a couple companies ago, had been coming to me for months asking me to take over sales force. It was owned by somebody else at the time and it was fallen into just into a really bad situation. A lot of fields, a lot of, you know, noise and it wasn't being maximized for what we were paying for it and I had, you know, from the point at which my manager it started up, and to that point I had been telling them like hey, I think there's some opportunity to really really take advantage of sales force and veteran form, everybody from our C suite on down. So you kept pushing me, you know, you should do this and and my messaging was always I don't want to be a technical person, like I want to kind of go on the the strategy track and move into leadership. And finally he had sat me down and said, you know, do you know kind of if you want to reimplement the solution, that you're going to be working with the entire organization and you're they're going to be utilizing the details that come out of this and really relying on this as you deep root it within the organization and grow it from this little this little department to to the entire entire organization. And that it clicked for me that point. So I was able to take this thing that I knew I only want to do for a short period of time and part lay that into learning how an entire business works, relationship building and really driving value for all of the different varying levels of that organization through reimplementation of sales force. So it was a it was a crazy, you know kind of fork in the road that I didn't anticipate and that really got me on the path here, which is where I'm at now and, strangely enough, right, which I guess is the case in so many instances. You know, it's the road less traveled, it's the road maybe you didn't initially want to travel, right, and it ended up being the most important road you ever set foot on. Yeah, absolutely, and and you know, honestly, it it taught me a lot, right, I learned how to, you know, listen better, ask the right questions, don't jump to conclusions or try to solve the problem right away, and and also think strategically, right when you're working with a system like that that's being used by every department and there's a lot of impact broadly. So I really had to think, okay, well, this is direction I think we need to take it, you know, does this fit? Does this help us achieve our goals? So it's so it really it really got me started on that path of you know, and ultimately got me to where I'm at today. So it's so I that was like one of my defining moments... my career that I always look back on and appreciate, just because of the weirdness of it, but also how helpful it ended up being. Great Story Man. All Right, guys, this brings us to the end of yet another episode of accelerating value. I hope that you've got a lot out of it. You know, one of the things that we try to do in these conversations is not only I mean so many people that are on this podcast have achieved a great deal. Lance clearly has achieved a great deal, but we also talk about and reveal where people don't still don't know right. They're still working through it, they're still really churning through it, maybe by themselves, maybe with a group of people, maybe vertically in their organization, were horizontally or both right, and because nobody has it all right. And so I hope that you you not only hear all that okay, but also it's kind of like a little thank you to lance right or any of our guests if you if you say to yourself, Hey, I have an idea that might really help lance and his team out. When we post this on Linkedin Chim in post down there. You'll Lancell know that you know it's posted. He'll be interacting down below in the comments. Let him know or you can send him a PM if you want to be private about it and just say hey, what about x, Y and Z and all that kind of stuff. That way, the river flows both ways right, makes it helpful for everybody concerned, including our guests lance. So, guys, thank you so much and thank you, Lance for being here. I think it was a great episode and we'll catch you again next week. Thanks so much. Guys. The sooner you can optimize your marketing spend, the quicker you can start delivering clear, measurable value to Your Business. That's exactly where business GPS from. Proof analytics can help. Learn more at proof analytics DOT AI. You've been listening to accelerating value. We're raw conversations about the journey to business impact. Help you weather the storm ahead. To make sure you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. Until next time, you.

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