Accelerating Value
Accelerating Value

Episode · 1 year ago

Data-Driven Creativity Is Not Just Possible, It’s Vital


Marketing requires a ton of creativity, but that doesn’t mean it should be devoid of the analytical.

In fact, analytics are key to the success of any marketing strategy.

Which is why the best marketers are those who know how to marry the qualitative with the quantitative. 

One such marketer is today’s guest, John Busby , Chief Marketing Officer & Managing Director at Centerfield . After years spent analyzing data, the skills he learned are helping him succeed daily as a marketer.

In this episode, we discuss:

-Why KPIs should be central to everything you do

-How to get organizational buy-in using analytics

-The importance of aligning incentives

Keep connected with Accelerating Value on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Accelerating Value in your favorite podcast player.

Today, every budget approval is an investment deal. If you're a marketer, sales or business leader, you had to promise to deliver value and impact. Writing the wave to get there is hard enough. Finding your way through the storm is even harder. If you're looking for that path forward so that you don't wipe out, you've come to the right place. Let's get into the show. Hey, everybody, this is mark stuce with one of the COOLEST PODCASTS I hope. I hope you agree. A lot of you seem to agree. That's on any platform talking about business and talking about value. We're talking about it the podcast accelerating value, and today we have a great guest. I mean this, this is this is actually a really, really interesting conversation because John buzzbyes background is very unusual. It's not unique, but it's very rare. He comes both out of a marketing background and an analytics background, technically speaking, there this is going to be a very interesting conversation, I think, for everybody to listen to and and and hopefully to get a lot of value from. So, John, welcome. Thanks mark. Glad to be here. And when we did our our you know, pre interviewed discussion and and you mentioned that and my background was unusual, I guess. I guess I knew that, but it really caused me to think about why that was and I'm looking forward to talking about it. Awesome. So let's just let's kind of get started here. Let's dive into the into kind of the deeper end of the pool. What do you think the most important thing that is that you've learned about the convergence of analytics and marketing. You could want to say that life is a series of epiphanies and in between those epiphanies is kind of a slow and steady acquisition of insight and understanding and all that kind of stuff, and then all of a sudden, a lot of times we will have a big bang kind of experience, right, and you know what? What what aristotle called the Eureka moment, and there's a kind of a polymathic quality a lot of times to those, to those moments where a bunch of seemingly unrelated things kind of all of a sudden Gill together in your mind in a way that you didn't previously think about and it really makes a huge difference. Do you have a DF moments like that and did they lead you to something that you consider to be almost like a north star in your career. In your career. Yeah, I'll talk about some of the epiphanies maybe from earlier in my career along the way, but in terms of in terms of where I feel like I am now and and the core, central issue in marketing is there there are two questions that are very difficult to figure out. One is, what are we solving for, like WHAT IS MY KPI? What should I actually be marketing against? And then second, once I know that, what is working to solve this problem, and maybe I can start with an example that's, I guess, in my recent past, and then I can I can work backwards and talk through some of the epiphanies maybe that that caused me to get into marketing in the first place. But the big challenge for marketing that I think many marketers don't spend enough time on is what is my KPI? What should I actually be going for to help our business? So I'm currently a company called Centerfield. I can talk at some point about what we do, but prices that I'm out of. You...

...come out of Amazon, which is, you know, renowned in the for this. So yeah, yeah, well, I'll actually start the story of a story at Amazon. So when I was there I was responsible for insights and analytics for the Grocery Division. Now, especially after Covid, grocery delivery is massive and at the time I was there was just starting to get pretty big and we had just acquired whole foods in the question that the marketing team was wrestling with is is, what should we actually be going after? And the obvious answer was seemingly might just be new customers, right, but it's not. That's not necessarily right. You could also be you could focus on customer lifetime, since you don't want someone to become a new customer, make one order and then leave. You could focus on how profitable customers are, because if I just order a banana, it's not going to be profitable to deliver that banana to somebody. I could focus on profitable orders, meaning how do I create as big of a basket as possible to subsidize the cost of driving that order to you? or I could focus on something that might be like the Amazon Halo effect, meaning I buy groceries from Amazon and therefore I'm more likely to buy something else. Like all of those things you could potentially justify as the thing that you should be marketing for. And so an example of why how complex this is is let's say that you have an idem marketing idea, which is someone should your first order is a hundred dollars on something like that. That is going to do amazing for new customers, not going to do so well for a profitable order, might not do well for customer lifetime. That's that sort of thing. Let's say that you incentivize something to guarantee the satisfaction of your first order, like, if your eggs break on the way to your house, you're going to replace them, something like that. That's probably not going to be as successful with new customers, but it's likely to be more successful with stickiness. Let's say that you focused instead on which pro incentivizing certain products the people ordered when you know you're going to deliver something to your house, because you had this this notion that people that, let's say, got eggs were likely to stay longer than people that got bred. So I won't say where we landed on this subject. But until until we were able to figure out, through analytics and data and a lot of thought around what our KPI should be. It's hard to say we really knew what what we should be marketing those sounds like to me that, among other things, right, you're really talking here about the importance of analytics to the creation of the right strategy, setting everything else aside for a moment. Absolutely, it's it's critical to the right strategy, and even in simpler businesses there's so many different things you can go for. You must you must figure out what you're trying, what you're trying to maximize, and it's also true with with am I trying to solve for revenue over the next six months because I'm a startup and I need to bother a blah. Am I trying to solve for something eighteen to twenty, four months a way, that's profitability. All of these things become can be can be solved best through analytics. Yeah, I really agree with that. Probably one of the the the more important epiphanies that I had a long time ago was when I realized that strategy is a promise. Right, it's a business case. It's basically choosing a strategy is saying, if we do this, the results are going to be better than if we do that, and then be so being able to be predictive in support of that and then be able to confirm that the prediction was in fact...

...correct shows the indivisibility of strategy and analytics absolutely and I know one of the one of the things that I realiz, realized early in my career in marketing, and maybe it's just because prior to be prior to running marketing teams, I ran analytics teams, is we needed to have data science expertise, whether it was in house, outsourced, consulted, whatever, because they're to two things. One is some of the questions were we're too complex to address without data science and then and then second, as a marketing leader you're working with other executive stakeholders that have a foundation in operations, finance, math, those sorts of things, and if you want to justify a pivot and strategy, you need to do a really good job of making the business case and and I think analytics one of the best ways to do that. So this is sort of like standing on the shoulders of that last statement, right, but talk to talk to us a little bit about how how important it is, in your opinion, to be able to offer a predictive business case for whatever you're proposing to do. Mean it's been compared, for example, to a public company giving annual guidance to the street, which is a prediction, right, and then, against that, they follow up with the street every quarter with a quarterly report to say, Hey, this is how we're doing and this is not only what the KPI show, but this is what the cause and effect relationships are beginning to look like. And so we're going to have to, you know, pivot here or, you know, maybe we have tailwinds behind us, right, and so the original prediction for the year is we're going to do so much better than that that we have to reset guidance. I mean that that's a comparison that the people make and I'm just I think it would be really interesting to hear you talk about that. Well, at this is good timing because we're doing planning for two thousand and twenty two at the moment and mark you probably are as well. It's and and I like in marketing to try to work backwards from a from a sales or revenue or profitability goal, and then what I want to do is I want to understand which which things, if I do well, are most likely to make that successful. So, for example, at center field we are three or four different products, we operate in six or twelve different verticals and and what scenarios, if they go right, will enable us to meet or beat that that goal. But all we I always kind of start there and then my team, we just did an off site where we did this thought exercise. Will like imagine that we could only focus on on two or three things and we're trying to figure out how much revenue it could create and the probability of success. And then and then from there we sort of stack rank our ideas and and come up with plan and then from there the ideas we need to sell that plan to the executive team and it's it's a lot of it's a lot of like predicting outcomes and saying what would be successful for those outcomes and how the rest of the organization can contribute to the success of those things. So that's that's our process. I think. I think in certain cases, like I can, I can think through that example back at back at Amazon, like like we were doing. We're doing a lot of predictive analytics about like what what people might do in a store and how that might in the...

...future change their change their behavior in a positive or negative way, and then from there how can we how can we influence those behaviors in the star? So in just in all facets marketing, it's super important. But one of the things that is, you know, this sort of like the two thousand pound gorilla in the corner of this conversation, right, is that probably one of the longest running feuds in businesses between business leaders and marketing leaders, right over this whole issue of proof of impact, of Roy things like that. Right, as you kind of think about this through both of the lenses that you bring to this little topic, have you? Do you have any thoughts or is there anything in particular that you think would be valuable for the audience to hear in terms of the gaps that you see as existing between the mindset of a business leader and the mindset of a marketing leader? One of the things that that we do is when when a deal is signed, ask the sales leaders if they believe that the certain marketing touch points along the way we're helpful, and I guess the reason that I that I bring that up is I think that marketing and business leaders should talk more openly, honestly and candidly about what they think about individual scenarios as a way of complimenting what you're what you're seeing in the in the big data, because attribution questions are attribution questions are really complex and you need you need both like qualitative and quantitative discussion around marketing strategy and impact, especially the company like like mine, where we're not going after tenzero customers, were going after a hundred or two hundred or three hundred, and that purchase cycles are long. And did somebody attend our event? Did somebody, you know, click on an email like the like? Yes, you can put it all onto a score and and we do, but we need we need that backed up by real world discussion, and so I would actually say, like, like earning trust with your colleagues about individual marketing scenarios is just as important as as big data analytics. I really agree with that. The the to rely on each other. You know, it's it would be very difficult to say that one is more important than the other because they're so intertwined. Yeah, we talked about we talked about that. We talked a about those things all a lot, because getting sales or executive or operations buy in on the strategy is is super important and and so, almost like with with every meaningful check in, we ask honestly whether whether or not our partners think that dravigy is is working, because that's it's a helpful supplement to our data. And then can also if we have different opinions on something, then like marketing may believe something isn't working and sales does, or vice versa. By doing those checkens we can we can dive deeper and get to the root of the real answer. You know, one of the one of the things that that you mentioned there briefly behind my next question is this issue of sales cycles, long sales cycles right. I know from our our earlier conversation that you have talked with sales teams where you are about time leg...

...right and the fact that you're creating value of asynchronous Lee with way that they're creating value. No words, your qtwo is not necessarily linked to their qt right. How do you you know? If if you were to give the our our listeners, advice about the way to have that conversation, what would you tell them? I'm going to probably sound sound redundant here, but but my my advice would be to talk to your sales leaders constantly and about the tactics that can be used for short term and long term improvements in sale cycles, because their tactics, their tactics, you can do for both. A lot of and and our our marketing plans always involve long term and short term gains. For instance, a lot of a lot of what we do is harness the power of our own platform to to publish insights, insights about industries in which our future clients operate. Those are often really really high up on the on the or really really early in the sale cycle. And then something that's like midway in the sale cycle might be an event or something like that, where a prospect comes to that event and we're able to have a deep sales conversation with them, and then something lower on, on down might be an incentive or or whatever. And so advice number one is to always have these short, medium, long things going on at the same time so you satisfy you satisfy the your sales partner that's nervous about making the quarter and also that's nervous about making next year. The second thing. The second thing to do is when deals are closed. Always talking to the sales folks about all of those short, medium and long term touch points that happen to reinforce why it's important to do all of those things. So one of the things that I think, one of the things we've seen a lot in different customer analytics that I think a lot of marketers intuitively have figured out, but it's another thing altogether when you see it in the analytics, is that, given all the different time legs that relate to the impact of a particular kind of marketing program or a channel or whatever on an outcome, the consistency of with which you pursue your marketing efforts is arguably even more important than how much money you actually spend on marketing, because they're all kind of cascading of the the time lags right, are all gating throughout time and space. Your hardest point is that point from no marketing to when things start to actually happen out there in the market place, because you don't have any backfill and during that that whole first empty spot, right is everything is arching into the future. It's passing over a period of time. It could be three months, it could be a year, could be whatever it is in your business right, but it's a it's a it's really, really one of the things that we talked about a lot with business leaders because obviously the market marketing leaders totally get it. Is Hey, you know, when you cut marketing spend dramatically, you're not only having a future impact, but you're abandoning momentum and assets that took you...

...a while to achieve and it's going to sink. And then when all of a sudden you realize that you've gone too far, it's going to be even more costly to bullet back up right. And so one of the things that the analytics really encourage business leaders to understand is, hey, you know, we're going to we're going to have, we're going to achieve a steady state and it could fluctuate as much as you know, plus ten points or minus ten points, given what's going on, but we're not going to cut it in half, we're not going to cut it by a third, right, unless we just absolutely haven't no choice because we can't afford anything anymore. Right. It's an interesting it's really interesting to see the way the analytics support what markers have long believe. That's true and you know, we can see it. We can see it in the data. When we invest in something more or or less, I mean it, it actually can happen pretty fast in terms of lead flow and you can also see in terms of the the pipeline when things are going from twenty five to fifty percent and fifty to seventy five percent, if you and that's that's why it's so important to have analytics capabilities within within your team, because because otherwise you're going to miss you're going to miss this stuff and it's not going to be obvious that a ten or twenty or thirty percent cut in your marketing budget has some downstream impact and less and less you think deeply about that all the time. I actually think that it's one of the reasons why so many businesses historically have been willing to cut marketing deeply and quickly is that they don't have any real understanding of what it is that they're walking away from. Yeah, that that's true, and the best, the best defense for marketing, so to speak, is is strategy back by KPI and also and also data and and you don't you don't just have to have one KPI, like a like a new customer. If you have these other things that are really clearly correlated with sales, you know, then then, I mean one one thing that's correlated with sales is having more salespeople, right, and so you're not so eating the classic Cro argument. Right, yeah, right, right, some more more sales people, a little more sales. But if you have these other things that you've incubated in marketing that very clearly show more sales or more profit or whatever, then you can have an honest discussion about about tradeoffs. So how did you make your how did you hop over the fits right? What made you want to do that? Yeah, that's a great question. I thought about that a lot since our first conversation and when I look at my career or when I describe my career, I generally say that I have twenty plus years of experience and product marketing and analytics. I think once you've got to twenty you just say twenty plus. So if I don't need any more, I don't need to be any more specific than that. But Um, but I started I started working at the during thecom boom. In College, I was a political science major and and was on the debate team and didn't really know what I wanted to do and I took a job as really the first full time employee outside of the cofounders at this startup called IQ chart in California. We were focused on real time stock charts, which, prior to IQ chart, you had to pay hundreds of dollars a month for. They were like these terminals that you would buy and, you know, all the all the day, would flash whatever we were offering. It at at thirty bucks. And I remember my job interview. They gave me thirty minutes to write a press release, which was easy for me given my background in in in debate and and they loved it. Hired me on the spot and I moved to California. was off...

...and running and I didn't know what I was in for because the the cofounders were both technical engineers. I was not technical and I ended up doing a lot of different stuff. I ended up writing every page of our hundred page website, doing every piece of external comms. There was a phone in this closed office that rang a few times a day. I asked what it was. They said that's our phone number, we don't answer it. So I took on customer service and in the next year before we were acquired. I learned what I love to do. The first thing is I love to write things. I loved writing all that website copy and anything related to marketing and I love to get press. And then, second I love to use data to make decisions and decide what to focus on, like, for instance, why were people signing up, or what features were people using or whatever like. Those are the things that I wanted to spend all of my time on, and so I actually, excuse me, I I would guess that the preference for data came out of your debate raining, because you were used to amassing proofs for your argument. Right, yeah, yeah, think about you know, athletes go to college four weeks early to train or whatever. At in debate, we went to college for weeks early and did a bunch of research and compiled arguments for whatever the topic was for the year and then you debate that entire topic for the whole for the entire year. So I learned a lot through that experience about about structured thinking, about making arguments and you must, must must have data in order to support anything that you want to say. So it was great training ground for where business is today and I thought. I thought that product management would be the perfect role for me, so because it involved a lot of writing, making decisions based on data and so on. So I did that for about a decade an ad tech company called March X and and then, and then what we realize that that company would we were entering this new category called CAL tracking, or call analytics, which is all about attribution of offline sales to online media. And a lot of digital marketers didn't know what that was, and so I recommended that we start this industry research group internally to study the space, develop insights and publish reports which are very data driven, analytics intensive, all back by data science, with a team of data scientists, and we'd use that research to help us, to help us sell and also to provide insights to our existing clients. So it was like an account management thing, it was the stales thing, it was a marketing thing and and through that I said, wow, I really love analytics and I really love marketing. Ended up taking over the marketing team at March X and Amazon, which I described. I was I was back in analytics, but it is really analytics in pursuit of understanding marketing. So that's that's how I crossed over. And one really cool thing about marketing is is it's a pursuit where you can be highly data driven and analytics focused and also be creative. So you can spend a lot of time thinking about these messages that might be interesting to people, which is really fun and inspiring work, and then, if you have a side of your personality or a team that supports you that can help really interpret what's working, it's an amazing combination. I really agree with you. You know it. I think that the one of the one of the miss conceptions that some marketers have is that analytics is a judge in black robes. Right, right, and it's and it's really a coach and and a bodyguard, right, bodyguard of your...

...creativity. I love that. I'm going to use it my team meeting later today. I totally agree with that. It's so let me let me ask you about Amazon. Would Jars. Would you say that it was easier to run analytics and Amazon because of the emphasis and the priority that that company places on analytics, or was it harder because of that same thing? One of the there there are a lot of really cool things about Amazon for analysts and for analytics minded people, because everybody is data driven there, as as you may know, if you want to have if you want to have a meeting, you don't bring in a powerpoint, you bring in a document and at the beginning of the meeting everybody's silent and reads the document and and you discuss it. And if you're if you're proposing a new way of looking at things, you're have proposing some type of analytics focused thing, you're going to have a really robust discussion about it. And so I think, I think that part that parts great. I think, yeah, well, it's eventually a peer review. Yeah, that's right, it's eventually a pure view, and so I would say, I would say that part that parts great. And as an analyst you have to really be on your toes because people are going to are going to press you on things. I'd say, someone who's an analytics professional, Amazon's a great, great environment for you. What in what made you would I mean the implication in my question was sort of that it's a two edged sword, that the thing that makes it easier also makes it harder. Is that? Is that a fair statement or it is? It is a fair statement because there ten or twelve ways to analyze analyze something, and and you can essentially have an endless discussion about what your KPI should be in in marketing, and and and so I think you need you need to have the discipline to to look at various options and say, we have done we have done enough work here and we're going to make were to make a decision based on the data that we have and understand what the tradeoffs are. So, you know, you use like analysis paralysis, and that's something that that we all say sometimes that can it can happen at Amazon for sure, and happens in a lot of organizations. I was going to I was going to actually ask you, you know, what does zero, because I think that this is something that the people who are listening could really benefit from as as an exemplar right. What does a what does a winning argument? I'm also asking you to tap into your debate background. What is a winning argument look like at Amazon? Because something tells me you're not going to satisfy everyone all the time, right, so they're there. has to be kind of a something that makes makes the difference in a way that is sufficient from most people, and I'm just wondering if you could illuminate that just a little bit, because I think that where I'm going with us is that a lot of people out there wonder what they really have to do in order to satisfy the detractors, the critics, the people who argue the point right and and actually get get whatever it is that they're proposing, articing, this case around marketing approved. What is that? So what is what would you advise them? What's a winning argument at Amazon? Well, Amazon has an incredible hiring process where when you when you interview, you ask, you ask questions about tell..., tell me a time that you did X, Y Z, and then the the Interviewe is supposed to answer based on the star method, which is situation, task, action result. And I'm not giving anything away, because you're prepped for this by by the recruiter before an interview, and that's that's really the right way to structure in argument as well. So first of all, you have to describe the situation. So what's the context behind why you're why you're studying this or what problem you're trying to solve, and you've got to have a clear way of saying why. Then the task is, what are we solving for. To be really clear about that, because if you're not clear about what you're solving for, people are going to be able to nitpick your stuff to death. You always can go back to what we're solving for. And then third, that's establishing the denominator. Yeah, that's but then, specifically, what action are you going to take? And then either what result you either what result you you expect or the result that you predict. So a little trick that that you learn and debate is is after you make an argument, there's a period of time which is called a cross examination, and somebody ask you questions about that. So what you do is you anticipate the questions that someone's going to ask you and you you have you have something ready to go. So if you're in going into a big meeting, you definitely want you definitely want something like that. The other thing you want to you want to think through, is what we're not solving for. So if you have an action that's tied to what you're solving for, people can typically nitpick that by by making arguments against things that have nothing to do with that. So you just always go back to what you're what you're solving for. And then the last thing I would say is is don't get defensive. So always assume that the people in the room can help make you, make you smarter and make your argument smarter. If you go in there with that approach, then you're going to be way more successful at the outcome. And I only know this through my experience and being like super defensive early in my career and things that I wanted to do. No, absolutely. One of the things like that that I learned to do is to actually make that concrete at the top of the presentation. Just say hey, you know, I'm looking for this at the end. One of that, one of my kiakombs, is that this conversation is going to make this even more powerful than it already is. Right back then you kind of CO opped everybody right. It's it's sort of like in the in the industry, analyst, space gardener, forester, those guys. You know, a real trick is to bring them in very early in the product development piece and give them ongoing exposure and show that you've listened to them and by the time that launches, it's they're totally bought in. They can't be anything other than bought it. I love that approach. Yeah, I love that approach to launching products. You know, one of the things I wanted to make sure we we talked about is like incentives and making sure that you have, you have the same incentives as your other your other stakeholders within an organization. And maybe as a way of getting into that, I can talk. I can talk about what we do at Centerfield. So will be awesome. We're a we're a managed technology solution for digital customer acquisition. That's that's like both like the buzz words. But what does that mean? Brands hire us to acquire customers for them. So...

...we do marketing services or customer acquisition. We do that via paid search, social media. Our own digital assets are or websites, and we have a technology platform that that helps us do that and we have a number of websites that reach a hundred twenty five million Americans a year. So they are unique source of leads for for our clients. So that's what we do. Is kind of like how expedia is a marketing services company for hotels. We have we we do that, but in other industries, whether it's home security, Internet, senior services and so on. But a way, a way that we're a little bit different than other marketing services companies. Beside their technologies that are our business model is performance based, meaning that we almost refuse to get paid in any other way than an acquired customer. And not not only that, but we want a customer. We want we want a good customer. So if we instead of being paid a hundred dollars for a new customer, we would much rather get paid a hundred and twenty dollars for a customer that signs up and lasts for six months. We would much rather get get paid that way because our incentives are exactly the same as the people that are hiring us. If we do well, we want them to get promoted. We never want any kind of never like misalignment. And when I when I think about like as a marketing leader, what do you need to make sure you do internally? You need to make sure that that your incentives are one hundred percent aligned with your CFO, with your CEO, with your sales leader. You need you need to be, you need to be bonused on the same thing, and it's like one of those principles of that analytics or economics about incent incentives. You simply cannot escape them and if you want to have a successful marketing program you've got to really focus on that. I love that. Totally agree with that. Right. I think that actually one of the one of the biggest gaps between the two different mindsets historically, right, has been around that issue. Right, not not only like literally, but it's also encompasses the two different languages that the two groups appear to speak. Right, one is essentially simplifying it, but it's essentially revenue margin and cash flow, right, and the other is marketing terms and marketing Kpis that don't have a commonly understood equivalency to revenue market a revenue margin and cash flow. Right, and so it is a when you get that kind of linkage on the money and your your whole statement around incentives or variable camp or bonuses, whatever people want to call it, is, I think, so so crucial. Yeah, can you even be as as as simple as trying to justify or actually justifying everything you do in terms of revenue? Let's just imagine that's the key, key thing we're going for in an organization. So I have someone who runs runs video. They're not, they're not, they're not a cost. This video investment equals this KPI, which equals this revenue. If you run, if you run a call center, you've got to do that. You know, you're not a right, you're not a constant, you're not a constanter. You're in the customer retention business and every customer you you talk to equals of this much revenue whatever, like it's super important. I think.

Actually one of the things that is so, you know, kind of darkly ironic about this whole subject right here is that if there's one area of a company that should not have any concerns about our Wye, it would be a great marketing department. Right, because even if their primary focus is on being a multiplier of sales productivity, those saying dollars are also multiplying recruiting and retention or investor confidence or you know whatever. There's a whole bunch of different aspects of the business that are improved or degraded by good marketing or bad marketing, right. And so when you think about it that way, there's really only about three areas or functions within a arch enterprise that have that kind of multiplicative impact on broad basis. One would be marketing. Another would be enterprise it, because everything in a modern business ultimately is either accelerated or degraded by digital. And the third would be talent. So would be hr all. Three of those have that really superbroad, multiplicative kind of impact and everything else is really important, but it is stuff that is impacted by those three things more linear, right. And so I just yeah, I so this is this has been, I think, a conversation that's been everything that I had hoped that it would be. So thank you for that, John. To all of our listeners out there, I hope you have really enjoyed this conversation. I think that one of the things that I have as a big takeaway from what John was saying is that you know, be prepared to make your argument, anticipate the questions that you might get and have something in the bag to answer those, and realize that analytics and creativity go together. They're not in opposition to each other at all, I think. I think one of the things that I love the most about what you said towards the beginning of the of our conversation, John, is that marketing is one of those things that you could be very analytics led and be very, very creative. All at the same time, I think that is a key that's a headline and in fact, I think I'm gonna make that the headline for this, for this conversation. Backs mark, I had a last really great talking to you. Hey, thanks so much. All right, everybody, see you next week. The sooner you can optimize your marketing spend, the quicker you can start delivering clear, measurable value to Your Business. That's exactly where business GPS from. Proof analytics can help. Learn more at proof analytics DOT AI. You've been listening to accelerating value. We're raw conversations about the journey to business impact help you weather the storm ahead. To make sure you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. Until next time,.

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