Accelerating Value
Accelerating Value

Episode · 10 months ago

It’s Time to Re-Evaluate the CMO Role


The CMO role is changing, whether you like it or not.

For many, the role is increasingly seen as less relevant. 

And for the best CMOs, that provides some real opportunities to prove their value.

Today’s guest, Gaetano Nino DiNardi, Head of Growth & Demand Gen at Nextiva, understands these opportunities (and how to avoid the pitfalls in their way) better than anyone.

In this episode, we discuss:

  • Why CMOs need to update their core competencies 
  • How marketing can avoid wasting the time of prospects and sales teams
  • Why we need to stop neglecting the value of brand

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Today, every budget approval is an investment deal. If you're a marketer, sales or business leader, you had to promise to deliver value and impact. Writing the wave to get there is hard enough. Finding your way through the storm is even harder if you're looking for that path forward so that you don't wipe out. You've come to the right place. Let's get into the show and we're back everybody. This is mark extucee with accelerating value. This is your weekly podcast where we talk with different people in different positions, some on the brand side, some on the agency side or the consulting side, all different levels of people within an organization. We talked to them about what they've learned about value creation, about how to identify it, how to accelerate it, how to prove it, how to invest in it, also how to defend it. Right. That's because people are wanting to take your value away from you. That's that's called capitalism and competition, right. So if you're really that successfully creating value, somebody's going to want to snag some of that from you. That's what we talked about and we are very fortunate we have so many great guests, but I've really been looking forward to this one for able like a lot of weeks, because G and I have been talking about this podcast for quite a while, right, and we finally were able to connect about a couple weeks ago, and it was kind of like one of those magical conversations, you know, a lot of kids met and and I think that he just has some really amazing perspectives. Somebody. He's somebody who has learned a lot and has processed it in his head and kind of made sense of it. He has a he has a philosophy, right, that is based on experience, as opposed to, you know, the philosophy that then people try to kind of like supporter with selective experience, right. So he did it the right way. He learned first and then had big thoughts, right. But he's got a lot of provocative things to share about value creation, the role of marketing in that process and how it all ultimately intersects in the life of the customer. He welcome. Thank you, mark. That was a fantastic intro. Man. Appreciate you. You're welcome. All right. So you and I we started our conversation because I did a podcast on BB growth with Logan Lyles, which evidently tripped to trigger pretty substantially, given your note to me. What was it? I mean just I realize as quite some time ago now, but is there? It was for something that really got your tog. Yeah, I think there's definitely a couple things that got my attention. It seemed like things you were saying where things I was living and some of the things you were saying was sort of the trouble that CMOS are having in the rule today. A lot of that has to do with, I am from my perspective, CMOS maybe being a little too closely tied to finance and not being closely tied enough to the the execution of great marketing and so and so. What you may have there is a symptom where CMOS are becoming less culturally and socially relevant, but they're great at excel and just all they care about, where the top thing they care about is forecasting in numbers, which is not necessarily wrong. I think as a CMO you do need to be excellent in that area, but you should also have some pulse on how Modern Day marketing works. ADS take a lot of time to before they start working now because of all the clutter it's funny because Seo and paid ads are not all that different anymore in terms of the ramp time it takes. There's this classic sort of yeah, Seo takes three to six months before it starts working. Well, I'd argue that paid advertise and takes just as long as well. And so I think, you know, to kind of kick this off, this episode off. You know, I think CMOS are struggling. There's an attribution war or hamster wheel, whatever you want to call it, and I just think that, you know, my ten years of doing professional level be to be marketing. It's significantly harder today than it was before and a lot of that has to do with playbooks becoming outdated, clutter and saturation, the convergence of SASS categories, basically cross wiring and merging together big players that used to be single point solutions or just few point solutions have not become many point solutions. So you have zoom and Microsoft,... know, for example, encroaching on the world of unified communications, now offering void offer video conference hang offering team messaging, calendar scheduling. I mean we're seeing in every category just mass convergence. So I think the things you were saying about how the CMO is struggling and how that struggle is basically being, you know, cascaded top down to the rest of the marketing ord. Is a very frustrating, you know, challenge for a lot of organizations to overcome, but it also presents some exciting opportunities as well. So I don't know it. What's interesting about that is if you don't understand how it works today, and you brought up time leg right as an example, the ramped on how long it takes for bads or anything to ultimately have an effect. If you don't understand that, it really impairs your ability to forecast. Yes, and so these these things are instricably linked and we keep on trying to divide them. You're either the socalled, you know, created Cmo, or your the you know, the Business Cmo, and as though it was a choice to right and it's and it's clearly not. It's it's both and not either or yes, yes, and you can't be great at everything. You know that. That was another twitter thread that I that I sparked up that got a lot of controversy. It was something to the extent of, imagine a CMO who can't use Google analytics right and there were some people who said why should a CMO need to learn Google analytics? They can just, you know, hire someone who knows it really well and just get all the insights they need. Well then, what kind of signal is that giving off to everyone? What if the CMO can't use power bi? You know, what if the CMO can't just check basic things? Is it? Is it just this person is just a talker all day? Is that what the role has become? So, you know, just the basic competency of of a CMO today. How is the how is that being refreshed? That an ongoing basis? If you're one of these people who've been a twenty five year career sea level veteran and you're just, you know, once you make it to that first sea level roll and you just start jumping around after that from sea level role to see level roll, how are you refreshing your credentials? Obviously track record has, you know, speaks for itself, but if you just join in category leaders all the time, then it looks from the outside, Oh, this person must be legit. They've been at, you know, sales forest, Microsoft Dell. But there's just a lot of people in that ecosystem who have learned how to play the career game really well, and then when you get down to the nitty gritty and it's like all right, we actually have to execute on some pretty tough plans, it just falls apart. And so I don't know how you want to take that one, mark but we could probably riff on that for a while. So I think that that, you know, again, this is the inextricable connection between strategy and execution. And there's a very provocative article that came out today. Let's find it really fast. Here this is but this is a real time podcasting your it's in marketing Weekcom. It's called a horror of marketers. Strategic Bankruptcy is about to be laid there. Wow, and and it's by Mark Ritson, who's kind of an awful to be but right, he's a professor and he's been a marketer and he's he's pretty smart. I, you know, agree and disagree with him by turns depending on what he's talking about, but I think that that he certainly, if you kind of strip away some of the hyperbole in his in his piece today, right, he gets it some pretty cool issues and one of them is is that most marketers never actually have what someone would really call the strategy. MMM. And so, given that fact, executing it becomes actually difficult. Your back to how many new channels can we open up? How many new programs can we initiate? How much stuff can we throw at the wall right so that some of it sticks? Yes, this is this is brilliant that. I'll tell you, mark how deeply this resonates with me, because I've seen, man, there's there's a lot of ways we can take this, but here's how I'll kick it off, because your bone, this is hitting me good. So you this is how easy it would be for any, any marketer with some growth savness and some chops to just get something kicked off right. You, let's say. Let's say you're doing marketing for CRM company. You can set up automated bidding in Google ads, PPC. You can spin up a very generic landing page and you can separate the ad campaigns and branded versus non branded, and you can set spend... go as high as it can possibly go. Twenty five hundreds a day, threezero dollars a day, five thousand dollars a day, whatever, whatever, right, and then, and then, and then you're done. Then you're done. Like, if you're a basic level marketer, you're going to be really good at making a big deal out of that whole process which, quite honestly, only takes you a day. If you if you have somebody, if you have somebody in house who writes the copy for you, all you have to do then is copying paste that, set up the site extensions, create the ad groups and then you just let it run automated bidding he you know, you just let it run on autopilot and then you're done. You're not really doing anything. Like you could pay someone in five or to set that up and there's people with six figure salaries just offit. That now the difference between, you know, a real marketing strategy and just trying to see. That's just like to me, that's not a strategy, that's that's just like basic execution. That's just go set up some some mad groups and let it run. But the real the difference between the real good marketers sitting the average ones are the ones who go step further and say right now, out of all these campaigns and these ad groups which are generating customers, are any generating customers? Like, how do you connect the dots from beyond costper lead, because you know that's the the default. All we reduced our costper lead or our cost per acquisition is low, great, but is that translating into into business? So marketers got a shift beyond the front end of the metrics and look beyond just did someone fill out of form? Who Cares if they fill out of form, if they didn't become a customer? And that is just that part. When when marketers can fix that part, then their whole career trajectory changes. Otherwise you get stuck in into dust. So one of the one of the things that he that Writsen, points out in this article, which I think is very consonant with what you're saying right, is that most of strategy and indeed most of execution is understanding the context that you're moving into. So what are your obstacles, what are your head wins, what are your tailwinds right, what are you trying to overcome and what are the things that you can really capitalize onto? catapulture self forward and that some of that is is truly strategy and some of that is out of all the levers that you can throw, and you just talked about one of them. Right. What do you want to throw right? What's going to make the biggest impact? When you have kind of moved through this whole process in the last ten years and you think about what you have learned from all that, when you feel like that there is no strategy in place, what have you done to compensate for that and what would you recommend today, given everything you've learned so far, to someone in the audience who's going through the same problem as it's a good one. Mark Damn, this is going to sound kind of grim, this is going to sound Shitty to the marketers out there, but this is just the reality of what I faced. Every single company that I've worked with has wanted me to remain hyper focused on bottom of funnel market activities, and so there was another great article that came out like a month or so go talking about something called the ninety five to five rule and marketing. Ninety five percent of your target audience is not in a buying mode, yet we market to everyone like they're in a buying mode, when really only five percent or less of your target audience is in a buying mode at any given time it. So it proves full disclosure on the city. See Proof. Right, it prove. We call that tinder, right, waiting at right, okay, and and we try really, really hard to focus on people that are we have it, that there's a tender sort of relationship that's possible between them and us. Right, and it kind of reminded you know, actually, my mother, of all people, talking. That's what I was a teenager. He said, look, Mark, if you can just deal with the fact that some of the of the women that you ask out will just turn you down flat, right, we'll just say absolutely, not only no, but hell no, right, we can. You can be okay with that. It will all be good, and I think that, you know, what she was also really getting at was focused on the people that want to be with you, not the unattainable or the people who aren't the timings not there or whatever. It is right, and that is really work for us, something sales frunt as well. Are you appear to be...

...talking about that? Yes, yes, well, Gosh, you know. How do you? How do you? You know every back to the thing I said before about everything being so competitive, because really most categories now are very, very, very competitive. There are some emerging new ones that are not competitive yet, but they will be. But the ones that are the ones that are competitive. Now, let's say you're in crm or something commoditize like void or marketing automation. You know there can be, at any given points, twenty different service providers out there that are offering the same thing and doing the same thing and saying the same thing. So so, to your point, how do you now that down if you have twenty competitors? How do you pick the you know, the tender analogy is great. There's some customers out there or some level of audience that you get exposed to that is never going to become a customer. That's that's not necessarily bad, but it reminds me of something that ran fish can said, called the Wall Street Journal Marketing Problem. Your you know your seat, your C level team will be impressed if you get a placement in the Wall Street Journal, but nobody will ever become a customer there. It's just big, you know, broad eyeballs rather than maybe you know you, for example, you are a guest on B tob growth. That costs you no money, just time to get exposed to someone like me. And who knows, I could become a customer of proof analytics someday, you know, whenever the time is right. At least I know about you now right. Cost you zero dollars to it to just get me to know about you. So anyway, you know, getting back to the whole how do you narrow it down? Thing? Companies don't want to pick a side. That you know, companies are having a hard time with the idea that, hey, we're a good solution for any size business, we're a good solution for any vertical. That may be true, but you have to pick something. You have to position yourself somehow differently, and I love I'll shout out a former competitor of mine, Air Call. Air Call decided to differentiate themselves in the world of unified communications by saying on their home page we are a contact center solution for service agents. Now that's pretty impressive, right they went? They they because, because here's what's going to happen at other companies. If someone suggests that idea, somebody will say, oh, but you're alienating every other group. Yeah, but this group will love you and it doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to exclude the other group and they won't ever buy you. They still might, but who is that? Like, you know, target affinity and and a lot of companies who are doing really wide targeting. They can't pick anything that. There's no hill they're willing to die on. They won't stand or anything, and so I think those companies are going to struggle. You know, the other thing about that which is really important is that if you pick, if you're if your ICP is too broad and you don't take a stand, as you were saying, right, what you also end up with is a lot of kind of halfhearted customers and customer success will suffer and churn will increase. MMM. And so if you're if you're kind of in my position where you're you know, obviously I focus a lot on the financials of proof. Right, churn is deadly stuff. Deadly stuff. It invalidates, or appears to invalidate your product and in some people's eyes, right, so there's a reputational hit. It really hammers your profitability, it hammers your your momentum, it hammers your long you know, your lifetime value kind of concepts. Right. It's just bad news. And part of it is obviously about delivering high quality product and high quality experience, and you know all this kind of stuff, right, but if you allow your marketing and sales teams to pretty much do dragnet fishing where you're just scooping up everything in the ocean, regardless of whether it's something that you can you know that you really want to have or not, that that is that's a problem. Yes, yes, and you said something earlier in this podcast about contacts. You know, marketers have to get deeper in that. I'll give you a perfect example. This will man when went to when you hear this, you'll be like man, that's it. So context and intent of the person you're marketing to is is everything. And when when I was when I was working with the next TV on my most recent full time role, I saw that in Google ad campaigns we were driving a lot of clicks for a search term called Voipe phone service. Now, at face value you see voide phone service, you look at the keyword metrics and you say,...

...all right, this has tons of search volume, this has great cost per click, which means there's high commercial intent. Just intuitively it makes sense, right. But then when you go and search that and Google and you start looking through the results, because Google, the way it tells you results, will tell you what people want, because Google ranks things that people like. So you see home phone service provider, best voipe provider for residential, but you know, best voite provider for home. HMM, we are and we're end it's and it also seems that the sales is giving us feedback that there's a lot of residential lead jen happening. Oh Shit, we're dropping the ball. We're generating bad leads because somebody didn't take the time to understand the intent and context of this search. We just looked at it a face value, from a keyword metric standpoint and then said, oh, look how great our cost per lead is on this on this ad group. Yeah, yeah, no, no, it's not great, it's terrible. You're wasting your you're clogging up the sales and machine. You know, you're creating turn you're wasting time and money. This is the down trickle effect of bad marketing. And that's just one example. It's you know, that is a great example. You're right, that totally clicks with me. It's also an example of when marketers, or anyone else for that matter, focuses on data in the absence of an analytic and that analytic could be your own thought processes. It can also be, you know, mathematically driven, it can be, you know, there's a lot of things there. But if you don't if you're just saying this is what the data says. I mean there's a guy at Dell who's he's he's called the dean of big data. He's brilliant guy named Bill Schmarza, and he's not afraid of the pithy statement, right, and he wrote in his book that using data by itself is a broken promise. And that is a that's a wow powerful idea, right, you know, I mean it's a it. I think that you're absolutely right about the fact that companies in general and marketers in particular don't want to and I think sales guys also, by the way, don't want to alienate anyone or they don't want to refuse anyone's business because that's revenative. Right. Yes, but we but we, you know, we we really screw up, but we talked about revenue as those all desirable. Yeah, and to this point, there are companies out there will go back to the void phone service, example. There are companies out there who don't care. They are so bloodthirsty, they are so hungry that they will they will take the bad that comes with the good. They they are saying there is a small chance, smaller chance that, of a good lead coming through this, but we willingly and willfully acknowledge and accept that there will be a ton of junk and we'll just have to sort through this somehow. On the back end, will have to somehow qualify through some means, whether it's an extra drop down in a form which creates more fiction friction, nobody likes that, some sort of some sort of data enrichment, like like a clear bit or something like that, or a zoom info that will, on the backside, use contact information to verify whether this person works at a be to be company or not, whether they could be a decisionmaker or whatever the case is. But that's the problem that marketers are facing today. It's you. Do you want to go down this rabbit hole of like accepting all this junk, of knowing that there may be some gold in there and try to figure it out with data and marketing opps and go down that rabbit hole? There's a huge amount of time being wasted on activities like this, where we're as if you didn't have to go down this route. So, going back to the thing you asked me before about lack of strategy at companies, and I was saying that they all want me to be focused on bottom of funnel. This is this is kind of the problem I'm talking about, because when you are just at the bottom of funnel, you're often too late. You when you don't focus on building any brand outside of the people who are searching on Google. It's really bad when people only find out about your company when they're searching for things in Google, because there's probably competitors out there that they're seeing way before you. And so while there is a chance that you know, being in all the right places at the right time and Google can generate tons of revenue for you, which you can,... will never become a category leader that way and you will never become basically a top brand in your in your category or field. So you know, and I think so. I'm just this is great because I'm just going to kind of keep ratcheting this conversation up. I think that the more a customer feels risk in the by decision, the more true what you've just said is right, because the what we see a lot in the analytics is that as they cost in the risk of the by decision. This is particularly true in be to be but but it can certainly be true and certain parts of be Toc as well. It brand matters more and more and more, and it's not about pure awareness. It's about the confidence and trust portions of brand. And so if you, for example, if you feel you know, if you're if your company is known by many to deliver a high quality product and service right, your average deal velocity is going to be shorter than your competitor who doesn't have the same reputation. So let me ask you this question. Really great be tob sales leaders will say that one of the things that they focus on in the first meeting is disqualifying the customer right like they want the customer to DQ themselves right very, very rapidly, mainly because the salesperson doesn't want to have to waste time on something that's not going in. How do you think that that's so, assuming to agree with it, I think there's a lot of value that statement right, but it doesn't it's not predicated. I'm a hundred percent ray. But how do you think that marketers can leverage that same idea? Brilliant, brilliant. I love that you brought this up, man. So there's a shift happening, a major, major shift happening, whether people realize it or not, in not just be to be sales, but also be to be marketing. And it used to be the case that, you know, you fight for every deal. You know, what is it buy or die, quote or die. You Push, Push, push growth at all costs, right, and I think now, well, it's happened in the end the last couple of years, but I think now, especially in more be to be complex selling, it's become widely accepted and celebrated to not just waste sales people's time, don't waste the prospects time either. Don't. I've seen this so many times. Don't try and jam a prospect down the funnel, you know, selling them roses and watermelon juice. Right then it's then it's you know, fifteen days into using the product. Then it's a disaster and they, you know, they quit or they churn or whatever. A free trial that doesn't become a paying customer, a paying customer that actually has to cancel. This is problematic for so many reasons. You've already done a great job and listing all of them, but you know that that is the problem. In be to be sales, when you jam prospects down the funnel, and be to be marketing, when you are optimizing for your metrick to make yourself look good, it often makes the rest of the organization look bad. And what I mean by that is you know where I'm going with this. It's the classic serious decision demand waterfall idea where you used to be well, and I don't want to say used to. A lot of companies still operate this way. They will, they will want you to capture the leads. Let's see, it's all about leads, leads, leads, leads, leads, they considered, and the definition of leads is gotten very blurry. But they want you to do things like run ebook lead Gen campaigns or promote webinars and use the the contact information that someone used to sign up for the Webinar as lead Gen. and what they want you to do after that is take all of those and they consider to be top of funnel, take all the all that contact information that came from an ebook sign up content, download a Webinar, sign up and run it through some sort of email nurturing sequents. This is automated marketing emails, and try to come up with some sort of mechanism that says, Oh, this person maybe in a buying mode, or this account maybe in a buying mode. But but what a lot of companies just end up doing is just sending it all to like an SDR team that has them calling or emailing hey, it's like you sign up for a Webinar, where are you interested in learning more? Can we talk type thing, and you just you grow this sort of unhappiness, this this signal and a salesperson's mind like yeah, marketing is just sending me...

...junk. And so it becomes this robotic, unhealthy, just shitty process and workflow for sales and so and and now what is happening, and be to be marketing, is certain companies are smartening up and saying, HMM, I would rather just create demand. I would rather, instead of gating all this content on, gate it and let people consume the message, because it's the same thing for musicians. Why do you create music so people will listen to it? Imagine if we gate it our songs and just spammed people with the with the contact information. No, nobody would listen to our music, not one person. And so I think BB companies now are smartening up there. They're starting to realize all right, maybe we don't need all this quote unquote, lead Jen Info. Maybe we can just buy list from Zoom Info and work on smarter marketing and and maybe we just need a market to people. So well, not. The only thing we care about is when they come to the website, raise their hand and say yes, I am ready for a demo and you don't need to worry about all this top of funnel, connecting the dots nonsense, because you market so well, they just come to you when they're ready. And then sales has the most ready to buy opportunities, or at least you know within the near vicinity. They're not wasting their time on people who are just totally irrelevant or not ready to buy and like the next like two years. So this is actually exactly where proof has landed in our particular case. You know, there's a like with a lot of enterprise technology, there's a maturity curve and companies that are low on the maturity curve for analytics are not bad companies. They're just not really yet ready for something like proof, right. They've got other steps that they have to do first, right, and so we tend to help people figure that out and we give them information. We really try and help them because ultimately they are going to probably be ready for proof and we want them feel like that we were a part of that process for them. But it really changes our own sales motion because if they haven't already really consciously understood the needs that they have in this kind of area, we're going to end up having to explain it to them and that is usually not productive whol. Is. What do you have to explain to them just out of curiosity? Okay, so this kind of starts with a kind of one premise, and that is that for the last forty or fifty years the average American school has done a crap job and science and math. So there's actually a lot of ignorance in that space and and that's something that's very hard to get over, get through, get past, because how do you have the the educated conversation? I mean, analytics is is not a is not something you sell on the sidelock, and so it requires an educated customer and educated consumer, not only to buy it, okay, but to implemented, to use it effectively, to get the value from it. All those things are true, right. And so one way that we actually shorthand this little bit. If there's a lot of there's a lot of people out there. We see evidence of it all over the place in are just on our society right, where people are more into what they believe than what can be supported. And so we will in our sales guys will say, Hey, you know, I mean proof is essentially automated, the math and the data science. It's commonly used to investigate like eighty five percent of the world's big problems. Right. So climate change, let's take climate change. Proof has taken the same math, same analytics used to investigate climate change. We've automated it. We've made it very approachable for businesses to get maximum value from how do you feel about the science behind climate change? If they say, you know what, I actually I really think it's all a bunch of who we don't really believe it. This is probably an individual or a team that, even if proof was implemented and gave them the insights into what was happening in their business and in their marketing programs. They would not believe it unless, of course, it happened to agree with their point of view. Yeah, and I love that. You guys call it business gps, because where are you going? So, where are you going and how do you get there? That actually is a Singama. That's a long ago said. You know, the thing I really love about business GPS is a product name. It's the same thing I love about yes, on my..., and that is I'm never wrong, right, wow, yeah, it's a it's always adjusting me and rerouting me and ultimately I get to where I need to go, whereas if I stop and ask for directions, I am admitting that I don't know. That's good. I thought, wow, what a powerful insight into, you know, human nature. Right. I mean that is that's one of the things that that probably you know, you think about as custor. It's a total stereotype, but it's it's probably justified, right, men don't like to ask for directions, but men would love to use the GPS on their phone or such. You. So why do we? I don't know, Mark, how do how do we guess, you know, wrap it all up, and where where are we going? From here. Speaking of GPS, you know, on one hand you have growth marketers like me who don't really want to get lost in attribution wars. We just want to do great work. We want our marketing message to be consumed. We want to attract, educate and influence and then see the results turn. Now, on the back side of that through pipeline and revenue, whereas, I guess you know, on the other side of the coin to finance teams and probably even sales and CEO and so forth, they want to see more fidelity. They want that projection, they want that forecast right and and it's kind of hard to marry those, those two concepts together. But I don't know. Where do you see this kind of kind of going in the future? Well, I would add the third leg of that stool, right, which is arguably the hardest part for a lot of people, and that's brand. All right, yeah, that's the big one, the branded demand. Did it. I did a presentation, a key note, it Solt by southwest about four years ago called years and Greece, and years, of course, is demand marketing and Greece is brand. So I think that I think that it is no surprise, right, I think it's an integrated solution. Right. This is not an either or situation. You're not going to change the reality in that numbers is the language of business this and that business leaders really really super care about. Is the money being spent well? Is it being optimized and critically right? And this gets lost and kind of the marketing argument a lot. But if they can spend more to get more in marketing and they can afford to do so, they would be insane not to write and I think that most business leaders actually really agree with that statement. They don't have they're not trying to constantly whack marketing. They just not been given any, you know, compelling evidence that they should be spending more. And so I think that it is kind of all three is what's going to ultimately solve the problem. And I think that you also have to really kind of put this into the context of time leg so this is what you were talking about at the top of the call, about ramptime, you know, demand marketing. So this is a general statement. It's you know, there's holes and all the kinds of general statements, right, but in general, demand marketing is going to ramp faster than brand, brand investments are going to take a lot longer to become a serious player, but that they also have a much greater half life. We're going to stick around longer, then than an individual act of demand marketing. And so what this really argues for, kind of in a very cohesive sort of way, is consistency in marketing spin and marketing strategy and marketing activity, understanding that you know you have to change, you have to be aware of market place changes and iterate accordingly and all this kind of stuff. But it's the oscillation, the really heavy oscillation between boom and bust and the average marketing program that is actually the thing that's just murdering marketings impact on the business. And so you know you've got to be very, very consistent on demand, because the perishability of any one part of the demand program is is pretty high. Then the words it doesn't last that long. The impact of it doesn't last at long. So you have to really stack it in there like a bunch of dominoes. You also have to start a long time before you anticipate really needing or being able to use...

...brand. You have to start building it long before, long before you can really get any value from it, and so being able to kind of do all of this in one place. I think, simplistically right it is, is where we're going. The what a way to wrap it up by I love that. Man. It seems like the intersection of brand, demand, ops, tech, process, analytics, sales. That's whoever masters these components and marries them together, well, that's that's the key of success and this is a great condo. So, and I would add one more thing. I'd love your reaction to those. Yeah, I realize that people will dispute it, particular people who are really marketers, who are really into personalization. We go back a hundred and twenty years and we look at the founding the creation of modern marketing, marketing that as we kind of currently understand it today. It was created to address the fact that sales alone isn't scalable in any kind of cost effective way, and so they were looking for more scalability, more impact at scale. Right, so not just the scalability of operations but the scaleability of impact. And so marketing is by definition, about audiences, it's about populations. It doesn't mean that you shouldn't try to personalize and customize wherever possible, but the overall impact is at a population level, right, whereas sales is more right here and I think the to have always been very sympathica. They were designed to fill in each other's gaps. Now there are you know, it's a life, is a bell curve, right. So there's going to there's no absolute statements. But what do you think about what I just said? Feel free to yeah, so, when I think about before attribution software was out there, even before Google analytics started really picking up speed, you had kind of what they call old school traditional advertising, where you just do TV adds. That's not yeah, TV adds and and radio, and even all that time back by sales not being scalable. The first example that comes to mind is the De Beers guys who said, you know, you need to dedicate three months of year salary to buy your wife a really nice diamond. You know. So. So the marketing industry is no stranger to Gimmicks, but, you know, call it a gimmick called marketing. It worked, I guess. You know. What I would like to maybe close out on is there are there there are some some marketing teams that took some big gambles, took some really big gambles and they paid off. One that comes to mind is ring central sponsoring the Golden State Warriors when they were shit. They were the worst team in the league and then they of course became the best and you know, ring central just soaked up all that glory and it's just like, man, you can't get a bigger jackpot than that. You just can't, like from a brandy. You just can't do it's just unbelievable. You Know Zoom with airport advertising. There's many other examples. But who, what brands are going to take risks like that and and not necessarily be obsessed about, you know, the Daytoday Minutia of tracking that that I think you got it like it's a bouncing act. Like the thing you were saying about brand being that missing or the grease the how do brands that are that they want that dollar in, dollar out sort of mechanism and forecasting? How do they how do they get away from some of that to take risks? And what percentage of your marketing spend can go into something like a TV ad or a radio ad or podcast sponsorship or some sports marketing sponsorship? And how do you know if you're going to get value out of that. And you were talking about the time laps component and the ramp. How do you marry all that stuff together? I think that, you know, in terms of like getting out of the Google bottom of from a rat race and to, you know, establishing a brand that you get discovered at before people are ready to buy, that's that's powerful. No, I absolutely agree with that. I think so. Actually, I'm going to I'm going to end with this story and I would really love your reaction to it because I think that in a way it encapsulates what we've been talking about. So, I don't know, this was probably like six or seven years ago. It...

...was the the last one of the last major summer Olympics. Intel made a huge investment as an Olympic sponsor and it did a lot of really cool marketing around the Olympics. The opening event was dominated by this incredible display of drone technology. You know all obviously, you know, made possible by Intel technically, and it was extremely compelling and there wasn't probably an Intel employee anywhere, or, for that matter, a employee of a major chip company anywhere, who wasn't either proud or jealous as hell. Right when all that was going on. What was really interesting about it is that it was a like hundreds of millions of dollars worth of marketing investment in this opportunity, and so it did not take long for the then CFO of Intel to essentially experience a certain amount of buyers remorse right, like it was kind of like, holy crap, that was a lot of money, right. What do we get for that? Right? The analytics came back and said that several things. One is that from a recruiting and retention point of view, from an employee morale point of view, the payoff on that was unreal, right, just absolutely unreal, and that it hadn't you know, it kind of lasted. The the positive impact of it in the Intel population really lasted for much longer than you would have necessarily thought that it would have. However, because of who the audience of the Olympics is, there was literally almost no nothing. There was no tie at all between that money and an increase in sales by Intel, whether at the chip level or at the solution level. It just wasn't happening, right, and it wasn't because their solutions weren't awesome. They clearly were and are awesome. The people watching it, viewing it, participating in it, for the most part, weren't in the market to buy chips, and so they couldn't. I mean and when you stop and think about it, wasn't. You know. So you can't think about it only in this way, right, but if you think about the amount of the number of chips that Intel has to sell just to break even on that kind of marketing investment, it's pretty hlacious, right. Yes, yes, so this is where it's taking a risk. Absolutely, and the creative, the creative risk that they took, it was awesome, going to totally paid off in many, many ways, right, but from a business point of view, from an audience point of view, it didn't write. I think it was in some level. It wasn't an informed enough risk. Wow. So you know, a lot of thoughts on that man one. Yes, a lot of companies are making uninformed risks. They're going for the shiniest, biggest, brightest spotlight possible, where we going to get the most amount of broad eyeballs and you know everyone's going to get rat rob out it. And maybe another example of this is my former company, next to eva. They were the sponsor of the pack twelve conference and as a part of that package you would get the next Tiva brand logo displayed on all the various fields. There's signage everywhere and on one particular area that there was a lot of signage was on the headsets of the head coaches of all the PAC twelve teams. And you'd see on social media, you know, colleagues of Mine and team members and Partners and channel Resellers, you know, taking like pictures of the TV whenever like it would pause on the coach and you would see the logo on the headset and everyone's like wow, we're getting national exposure. But this sounds a lot like the Intel example, because you know, from an employee morale and and retention standpoint, it's like unreal. Everyone's like like wow, like our company is like really cutting edge, were forward thinking, we're out there, were relevant, we're on coaches headsets, were on TV boom. But on the back side of that, you know there's really no uplift right and so yet you have to start scratching your head and at some point and start saying, HMM, even geographically we're not seeing an uplift in even any leading indicators. We're not even seeing branded search traffic in these Geo's, you know, increasing. There should be a little surge here. We're not even getting that. And so back to the relevance that that's a relevance problem. But you know...

...then on the flip side you have to say, well, Shit, what could we have done with that money? That would have been better off. You know, we could have found more relevant audiences to target with maybe more efficient activations. And the thing that comes to mind, and maybe this will go way to close off, is bebe conferences. How many companies do you know just blow hundred K on the biggest, baddest booth there and their signage? There's brochures, there's pins, there's t shirts, there's everything you can imagine right that then look at look at the rest of the things that are happening. Everyone that booth, who is on the company side is either hung over, sloppy just bullshitting around right. Nobody is really taking the opportunity for that conference. Just like Intel to how do you take content and create it in the moment and then expand it three, four or five six months after the events and you know, get as much content lifetime value or the shelf life, you know, promotional assets to use after that. How do you know that's that's where a lot of the magic is made, not just the signage and the booth. And you know that. That reminds me a lot of the intell story, you said. So I don't know, man, that maybe that's where we capt it off. Awesome, man. So we're gonna, you know, we're going to want to have you back. Curiously, it's the the guys. I hope you enjoyed this as much as I did. Gee is is never at a loss for and and, as you can tell, right, I mean, there's a lot of smart people and we talked to a lot of smart people and some of them annunciate their positions. That are the mothers and that is sort of like you can be a great musician and that's not the same thing. That's being a great performer. Hm. So I think that what we have just seen right here is somebody who is both a great musician and a great performer. Thank you, Gee. You know how to get your point for us. Thanks mark, you as well. Been Great just meeting you, getting to know you better and, aside from being a great podcast host and marketer, business mind. You're a great human and appreciate your man thank you. Thank you very much. Yeah, it's I try to be all those things and some days I feel like I'm not as successful as I want to be. So I appreciate K no worries. Okay, guys, will be back next week with more. got some really cool episodes coming up. Y'All, have a great day piece. The sooner you can optimize your marketing spend, the quicker you can start delivering clear, measurable value to Your Business. That's exactly where business GPS from. Proof analytics can help. Learn more at proof analytics DOT AI. You've been listening to accelerating value. We're raw conversations about the journey to business impact help you weather the storm ahead. To make sure you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. Until next time,.

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