Accelerating Value
Accelerating Value

Episode · 9 months ago

A Guide To CMO Contention: How To Build a Bridge w/ C-Suite

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

There’s a record level of distrust between the C-suite and the CMO. And just like an unhappy customer, regardless of the facts or reason, that unhappiness needs to be addressed.

With the intention of getting to the bottom of this contention, we’re joined today by three guests with CMO experience, either current or former:

They discuss how they really feel about the conflict and what can be done to alleviate the situation. 

In this episode, we discuss:

  • Declining marketing budgets, low levels of trust, & a high turnover rate
  • How to optimize for both the short & long term
  • Using data to predict for the future & helping businesses understand
  • Aligning C-suite & marketing
  • How to let marketers out of the box

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Today. Every budget approval is an investment deal. If you're a marketer, sales or business leader, you had to promise to deliver value and impact. Writing the wave to get there is hard enough. Finding your way through the storm is even harder. If you're looking for that path forward so that you don't wipe out. You've come to the right place. Let's get into the showy everybody. This is mark extuce your host with accelerating value. Your weekly podcast on all about stuff. Retaining to value, identification, value creation, proving it right, defending it, investing more in it. How do you how do you deal with the changing definition of value or the changing circumstances around the value proposition that you originally proposed? So this is this is not about the markets, although there's a lot of podcasts out there that I would point you to if you're interested in that. This is all about how does this work in your career, particularly if you are a director, a senior director or vp and you have aspirations for going higher and you are dealing with the fact that the way that you have defined value and understood value and had people you know ask you about value in the past, which is probably been more tactical that all that's changing right now for you, right, and if you're going to become a member of the CEA stweet, you're going to have to understand that there's a much broader and ultimately far more definitive definition around value, which is I spent this amount of money and what did I get back for it and how long did it take to get that return on investment? Today we have a really amazing podcast. Okay, so all you guys, whether you're marketers or somebody else doing something else in a large company, you probably have heard rumbling about the fact that the CMO role has not only the lowest tenure and most major corporations, but that if that tenure continues to shrink. Now, in fairness, okay, that's also true for the crow. So let's not forget that little fact, and that there's record levels of distrust between the tea suite and the CMO. But that is also true for the CRO for example. So let's not forget that. So let rather than making this all about, you know, CMOS defending themselves and all this kind of stuff, right, which is ultimately not a real super profitable approach, right, let's say that there is a problem. There is a problem between certain types of roles incorporations and how they are valued and perceived by the rest of the leadership of that countable. And just like when you have a custom or that thinks you're not performing and the facts always matter, but ultimately you still have to address their unhappiness, this is sort of the same deal. So we have three CMOS. Actually, one of them, dominic, is a former CMO who now runs his own shop, so he's also got that perspective to it. So they're going to talk about this. We're going to have kind of like a no holes bard how I really feel about it and what I really think about it kind of conversation. So welcome guys. You want to introduce yourselves? Yeah, sure, I'll jump in mark. My name is Devin Murphy. I'll give just a brief background. I've led marketing teams in technology and in professional services. Now am in manufacturing. I'm fortunate to be the CMO of Gibraltar. Gibraltar's a leading manufacturer of products and services that power the world with renewable energy. We enable safe, instant, sustainable growth of foods through our controlled environment agricultural solutions and we provide, cough, comfortable living products for homes of a variety and a very broad set of products and services at Gibraltar. Thrilled to be here mark and really talking about a passion of mind which is really transforming marketing organizations to do exactly what this podcast is about, which is accelerating value to businesses. I'm excited to be here and talk about that topic today. Awesome, Great Ahad. Lisa. Hi, my name is Lisa Cole and I'm the Global Marketing Leader for a D solutions provider named Pharaoh technologies. We've been helping our customers bridge digital and physical work to...

...quickly and easily measure their world and then use that data to make some motor decisions faster. At the end of the day, when you really think about the challenges that we're solving, we tend to focus on thinking about quality control and design for manufactures, construction and then also crime scene, crash scene forensic investigations for public safety, and so that's that's effectively what my company does. I am ultimately responsible for, you know, the collective positioning of our organization, how we attract and engage audiences and then the cours monetize that audience to fuel revenue growth, and that kind of leads to what I'm passionate about. Over the last twenty five years, the first twenty of that was spent on the agency side, so to speak, where I had supported and was a CMO advisor and helping marketing leaders transform their marketing functions from the doors of things, people that were kind of focus on completing of activities and viewed as cost centers to really be viewed as revenue drivers, revenue engines for their company. And after a little bit I decided I wanted to stick around for the party after that transformational work was done. So I moved to the client side. Was the head of marketing for Global Management Consulting firm prior to moving on to another transformation at a Faraoh. So it's there's definitely been a common thread and that's really how do I help change the perception of marketing improve its value and impact? But then you got, basically you on the consulting side of the fence. You led that the transformation of a marketing department and you got it to such a good place you decided to buy the company. I decided to effectively decided to take that framework and then actually prove I could do it myself, and now I've done that twice. That's awesome. Yeah, cominy dominical with Sante. I'm the founder and CEO of a Marketing Services Company called two acts, but my career is almost the inverse of leas as I started and mostly marketing operation, rational jobs for technology companies in roles like demand Jen and marketing ops and Revenue Marketing and account base marketing, before we call that account PAS marketing at places like sap and steamens, and then I found myself in a CMO roll leading a marketing department to drive the same kind of impact. When I was CMO, we significantly grew the organization and then led it to an acquisition strategic exit. And through that career I've always felt that, you know, marketing has a very difficult challenge and that there's lots of take holders to support and and lots of impact you can drive, but oftentimes the Marketing Organization can can be transformed to deliver more impact. And in every role I've had I've been a transformational leader and helping to change technology and process and organization and thinking and how marketing engages with the business and other functions, and I think that's there in lies. The way to drive more value is to produce a more valuable function. And in my world today at two X I, as Peo of the firm, I lead a team of about three hundred marketers and we work with organizations in the BB's doctor helping them execute marketing work and bring marketing to a higher level of pejority and impact coresial. All right, so let's start with kind of the you know, the the two thousand pound guerrilla in the room. Right. There's there's there's a lot of several about, maybe not a lot, but there's several big surveys that have come out and last four or five months, right, that have been getting quite a bit of attention on Linkedin and in the press around the fact that not only are marketing budgets continuing to decline rather precipitously, right, but there's a very low levels of trust between the suite and the marketing function and very high turnover and worse, the high turnover piece volt in your piece is probably like a five or six year old story that that just kind of continues to have life and it. So let's start with why you guys think this is the case, and I chose my words carefully. I didn't say why you think it's true, because there are certain aspects of it that are that are problematic, but but they're also I mean, this is in the eye of the beholder,...

...right. So why do you think this is the case? He said you have a view. I do know when you look at those now these you mentioning, the budget cuts have been quite substantial, and then when you look at the correlating studies that would you know when they interviewed ceefos, seefos ex, meaning why marketing might have been the first bucket to go to in order to kind of right size a financial model, it's because it was the one that didn't seem to have a direct linkage to the revenue performance of the company or ultimately that, you know, let's say, the profitability of the firm, and because of that, that lack of that direct linkage, of course they were an easy first bucket to go to to, you know, cut that. Or the other piece was they didn't believe what it was that marketing had been presenting. So even if the marketers had attempted to establish that linkage to trust and what was being presented. So yeah, yeah, I do think that linkage was missing. I think mark you know, it starts with you know what is the role of marketing? You know what are the KPIS that are going to be delivered. You know, it's my view that marketing really needs to talk the language of the business, in the language of the business today, especially, you know, if you're if you're a public company, even if you're a private company, you know financial return. MARKETINGS got to deliver against that financial return. In marketers have to speak the language of the business and you know, do you have an understanding of what marketings role is in driving revenue and profit? Our KPI's appropriately said, is there a time stamp on the delivery in an understanding of the time that it takes depending on what your business objectives are, what your position to the market is, etc. What your reputation is. So I would add on to Lisa's comment that it starts with clarity of objectives and, most importantly, from the CEO, a clear remit for the CMO. I mean. So maybe maybe less frame it then, because I seen some from convergence here and then Dominica. I will really want to hear what again say on this, but one of the best things I've ever heard that defines marketings mission is that marketings job is to hop sales sell more product. That means more customers at that and that together is kind of the top line revenue these faster that's revenue from cash flar casual from reds are and and then, more profitably. That's obvious dance sales could do by itself, right, and you can also you could play that out with a lot of other parts that business as well. Right. Markings impact on recruiting and retention. Markings impact on this, that and the other. Right. So if we kind of think of it in those terms, generally dominic, what do you've what are you thinking? I think that's right and in the marketing leaders that I work with, I think a lot of them really do understand the marketing dub of trying to put results on the board at whether it's building the their pipeline or accelerating pipeline inter revenue. I think most marketers really accuate about that. I think the piece that often missing, though, is the other half of the equation, which is the CMOS of Panot mowner. As much as they're responsible for delivering the impact. They're also responsible for managing scarce, facred corporate resources in talent and budget and the effectiveness of how those things are deployed. That's how the CFO looks at the marketing budget and I don't always see marketing leaders that are as obsessed about efficiency and effectiveness of those resources as they are about the impact. I think you have to find a way to do both. I think of one area in there. You know, marketers are so attentive to something like advertising spend rli right in the metrics, in the instrumentation and the tools we have to measure that, but in lot marketing department, that's that says smaller part part of the total budget. What about Labor? But about technology? But about other other pieces? And can those areas also be used as levers to deliver higher impact than and obsessing over that? I think is where to your quote and I totally agree with it. I think it's has to be all of the things, not just one or two of them. If it's all right,...

I'd like to add on to that. There are two things that you hit on. The first was, you know, many marketing leaders do understand you know that there is a responsibility for feeling the pipeline and ensuring that whatever they're creating a market turns into revenue. But I have always been fascinated by the marketers that believe that there were they invest their dollars stops at that moment a lad has been passed to the sales organization and they don't see the disconnect there. I believe marketers and sales should work together and recognize that there's a joint responsibility across an entire not just lead life cycle but the customer life cycle. You know, I it's a difference between the words that you're saying and what you what you believe, you're your held accountable form and how you you know whether those actions match that word. And so I do think marketing leaders need to think as seriously about sales enablement as they do about, let's say, marketing, investments in marketing enablement. The second in the context of the CFO discussion, you know, thinking about how we deploy our resources. The other piece, it was really critical through the pandemic, was how flexible we are. And so if we spend most of our dollars either on personnel or these multi year technology contracts. We're not very flexible and that doesn't make us a very good corporate citizen in like the craziest of times in the world's literally shuts down. Heyst I'll pick up there. You know, the the the one piece that I would add on to what you said was customer lifetime value. So not just, you know, driving the pipeline, accelerating the pipeline, becoming full circle, and really how do we drive the value of customers over time? And that comes a number of way, through a number of ways, right, not just marketing tactics, but, you know, are we evolving or go to market strategy? Are we evolving our channels? Do we have compelling pricing schemes as products go through their life cycle? Are we working with product management and engineering, new product development to ensure that we've got products for the future? So all of those have to go into the remit of marketing. That's a that's a really, really important point, right, the both of you guys made. So it is, you know, a simple way of saying the what I said earlier about the mission marketing would be mission for everybody, which is more deals, bigger deals than faster deals, right, because that's revenue, margin and cash while impact, in a nutshell, right, and you can and you can kind of adapt that same logic to to to the marketing multiplier effect on other parts of business. One of the things, Debbi that you captured there, though, was lifetime value, right, which is one way of thinking about the time lagged effects, right, the delayed effects of something, and it also speaks to this idea of staying current with the business case which you made originally. Right. So the circumstances around the business case are the things most likely to change. Those can be either head winds or tailwinds that can either make you look glorious in terms of your performance against that business case or can just completely tear you up. How do you guys think about that? Because that also seems to be a part of this equation that nobody is actually really thinking about, right the maybe the marketers aren't, but certainly the piece weet really isn't either. I mean one of the one of the most one of the best illustrations I have on this was in a podcast that was a CEO that hasn't published yet. He said, you know, the main reason why I have historically always cut marketing as we go into a difficult time, or if I just need the money somewhere else, is that not only do I not know what I'm getting, but I also don't know what I will be losing into the future right because of that time lagged affect. Right. What do you guys think about this? I mean Dominic, what do you what are you thinking about this? I think the marketing will certainly does have a time like it's a real factor that you, you know, engage a customer for the first time or prospect the first time to day and then it takes some time until they buy and then become a bigger customer and an advocate. But I think that that's not an excuse. I think marketing has to be driving short term value while it drives long term value, and you have to find a way to do both,...

...and I think there are ways. I mean there are the typical buy our journey process. We all know there are people in the very top of it that have never heard of us, that we must activate to our brand. But then there are people today that are going to make a purchase decision and they need to find us and they need to fall in our door and they need to get engaged with our company and be moved by some powerful and compelling story to think of US versus someone else. And and I think thinking about how to how to balance both of those. You know, you you earn the right to spend time on the long term big things by proving results in the short term. Thanks and and you have to do both. So it when I was at honeywell write this then CEO Dave Cody, who was where it came to the honey well. He was the global CEFO for GE. You can kind of get sensibly that me too. You know what his character was like. One of his favorite quothes that he would rip off the the drop of the hat, right was anyone can optimize for the short term and anyone can optimize the long term. It's the trick is doing both right sintaneously, which would go straight to your point. I'm still gonna come back to that linkage. Right. So not knowing what I will lose out on. That has everything to do with not really understanding when and to what degree marketing investments will impact performance. Right. And so in my organization, when we think about what our success model, financial success model is for this year, the next year, the next three years. We will bring up my CEO calls it the I need to understand the pig as it's traveling through the snake and and volume conversion velocity. And so if I turn off marketing spend here, how to the you know, what's the sighs of that impact and when would I feel it? Is it one, two quarters, is it six quarters later? We understand that we can all get a line done what the appropriate investments are and if we have a downturn, what kind of decisions are we willing to make and how do we prepare for that potential impact? Because there were going to be moments where, as a corporate citizen, the right thing to do might be to pull back on spend, might be to make smarter decisions, to be, let's say, outsource so functions. But you need to be able to articulate what's going to happen and went yeah, mark, I was going to pick up on that and we touch down it a little bit earlier. I mean, nobody's had a playbook for what we've all faced the last eighteen months plus being in the manufacturing space right now. I mean the impact on raw materials and pricing and managing pricing increases through channel partners and labor shortages, and you know, we have faced it all. You know the plight of our own employees and that, you know. We've all read the stats about transformation and the quickening pace of transformation, and we've got to be on our toes as marketers, not just in the way that it impacts, you know, our audiences and how it impacts their buying, purchasing, you know, decisionmaking. But how do we, how do we continue to evolve and transform as an organization? And I did that coming into my new role. What are the things that are not strategically important that I can do faster, cheaper externally? And you know, where do I really want to place my bet for the next, you know, year so gone or the days of, you know, establishing a Marketing Organization for the long term? It's, you know, where the priorities in driving revenue now. How can we to your point, supports it the sales organization today and how do I resource more effectively? And that's a that's a question I ask myself. You know, what's our marketing model? What's our organizational construct today? Next quarter, what's it going to look like? That's right. You know, it's I think, one of the biggest challenges that we face today, not only marketing but in most parts of right, is the volatility and the velocity of change, right, the fact that that past is not reliably prolog and the data by itself is always and only about the past. Right. So...

...how do we deal with that? How do we get ahead of it so that we we know that things are changing in enough time to actually stay ahead of that and make it a different decisions? How are you guys thinking about this right now, knowing, knowing that that this is a huge struggle for everybody, right, so it may just be something you're thinking about rather than doing right now, but how are you thinking about it? Ever, put on that mark. I think the role of the marketing leader today requires bravery. You have to be comfortable doing things that you've not done before and if you do that right, that's the route of building competitive advantage. Right. And I think that the best marketing leaders I work with are wanting to be the the innovator, on the on the curve. They want to be on the bleeding edge. They want to bring in new technology, they want to consider new operating models, try different types of routes to market and and almost when I was a SMO, we would allocate a percentage of our budget to, you know, rd like things that we, you know, had no idea they were going to work, but we knew if we tried three or four of them, that one of them is going to be a home run and was going to help us dramatically improve our customer experience or our you know, customer advocacy, or our ability to convert people. That are, you know, these these areas that we we kind of lose sleepover as marketers. We know they could be better and you read as much as you can about what others are doing and you don't like any of the answers. I think we got to try some stuff that we that we feel like we're going out on a limb on. That's a good thing. That's part of the CMOS job today. Yeah, I very much think that you're right about that. But I'm going to play the devil's advocate for just a second because I know there's going to be business that you're listening to this is going to go wow, wold, whold, more right, and that is they're going to say, Hey, you know what it's great that you're being brave here drying new stuff. How are you really going to know that it worked or didn't work? And and across what time frame are we looking at? Right? They're going to we're going to kind of fold it back into a classic business case kind of framework. And so how do you how do you think that marketers ought to be addressing that issue right, because innovation is still kind of like in there. The average marketer is a creative human being, right, so innovation is still very much in their traditional wheelhouse and that's sort of not the part that's under assault. It's it's what is it all mean? That part that's under result. Yeah, but you have to apply the innovation to the metrics that the business looks at, like a metric of what is my cost per lead or customer acquisition cost? How do I got try to get that down by half? What is my conversion rate of demand through my final how do I double that? How do I look at improving our you know, customer up, cell rebuy renewal rates? I think if you apply these innovative ideas to the core metrics that matter and you set objectives around moving those metrics with these things. Then it's not just a bunch of marketers sitting around having a beer, congratulating themselves and being masters of the universe. It's a it's a conversation that the business understands and appreciates and and encourage you to do more and kind of build on that. You've talked about the metrics that matter. How effective of those marketing leaders is planning to non marketers, what it is that marketings role is, what it is that we are focused on that will influence or drive those metrics that matter and do so in ways without marketing speak or marketing jargon. And so in my organization I have, I'm using this ATM framework right and so marketings roll and break it down to these three steps. What are we doing to grow our audience? What are we doing to build trust and drive engagement without out of audience, and then what are we doing to monetize that audience? That audience can be any number of different types of stakeholders. Could be a prospect, a customer, could be a media partner. There are lots of different ways to think about how that audience is but when I break it down to those three and then I can innovate in the context of either within one of those three. Or the innovation is how do I get those three to work in concert together and how does that drive the performance? So, for example, everyone knows that marketing, you know, is responsible for branding and PR and social media and the website and all the emails, and you know people that subscribe and follow on social can you actually connect the dots and show how you're innovating and how those things feed each other? So we're not just trying to grow followers and the social media. But guess what, I'm very intentional. The innovation comes from how I get those social media followers to come to our site, to subscribe for more information,...

...to stay engaged with us, how affective I am at getting those people to raise their hand and want to talk to someone. The innovation sometimes is not justin within a bucket, but also between better leveraging those three together. And when I talk about that externally, I'm not talking about the number of email sent, our open rate or click through rate. I'm quite literally saying if we are this effective and attracting new audiences and we get more of these people to say I want to hear more from you and I trust you, they get more of those people to say yes, I'm interested in talking and learning more about your solution. It's a whole lot easiness say now here the metrics that matter. And here's why I care about cost per lead and how I'm going to innovate to drive that down. Here's why I care about volume conversion and velocity, and here's how I'm going to drive that. But it's always in that context of the ATM framework and it's not mine. I heard it somewhere along the day, but at the end of the day, what do you do with an ATM? You put money in or you take it out. Now, I think. I think that that is right in line with I think so. One of the things that you hear a lot from business leaders about this right is that they want to understand how it all connects or doesn't connect. You know what the relationships are between this and this and this is this against this right? And how long does it take? How long do they want to have to you? They almost want to really explore marketing as an investment fund growth right and that and that you know. I think that you know, one of the one kind of these most unhealthy dynamics about all this historically has been the focus on cutting marketing as opposed to the opportunity to appropriately increase it and create even a new bench you know, new benchmark for marketing spin in a particular situation. One of the one of the things that I'll just share real fast on this is that a lot of markers have correctly intuited what's actually really going on. They just can't prove it right. And one of the one of the biggest examples of this that we see with our customers, approve, is the consistency of spin and and or activity right is actually really super important. Right that you can you can have a lower level of spin and if you approach it all that with great consistency, you will outperform the company that is oscillating between extreme highs and extreme divestiture. Right, and that is we all kind of knew that. It made sense intuitively that that would be the case, but it's kind of another thing all together when you see a reality, and that's you know, when you think about even marketers that are growing along their career journey before they reach a marketing leadership role, they're oftentimes surprised when I remind them that it's as equally as dangerous them to underspend as it is to overspend or to not necessarily be consistent and thinking through, recognizing that momentum is a thing. It is interesting and that those the marketers that have been trained to believe, well, if I reduce or I come in under, that's great. None, no, actually, that's equally as dangerous is spending too much. So it is interesting. But incorporation for this, and Debbie, I really would like to have you respond to this. FIRST IS I did. I actually get some little mini interviews with some CFOs and CEOS kind of sharpen this up a little bit. You know about the whole trust the issue, right, and one of the things that most of them, almost all them, highlighted was that it wasn't that they thought that they're CMO was somehow duplicitous and terrible and unworthy of trust in that respect, right. It was more around there. They didn't, they often do not understand why marketers try to report out their performance in ways that aren't believable or they're incomplete right or of logic isn't there. And so it's from their perspective. I'm talking about it from their perspective. So MTA would be a great example of this right in their minds, right where, where they don't deny the importance of having a really great understanding of the average customer journey and repeating patterns in the journey and things like that. But they're they're incredibly aware, more aware than I think a lot of markers might think, of the holes in that whole approach. Right most recently, the iois...

...fourteen fifteen stuff, the google stuff, the complete, you know, kind of gutting of third party data, the rise of bought traffic as a percentage of the total amount of touches that they're recording, but also the fact that it's it doesn't you can't, you literally can't optimize your spend based upon data by itself because the the timelag issue alone makes that impossible. But there are other mathematical realities in there as well that they feel like they totally get. It was part of their business education and all that kind of stuff and that when marketers show up in the board room and do all this stuff, they're kind of like sitting there going it's not that I don't trust you personally, but I'm kind of wondering like how do you even think this is real? You? How do you think about that and where do you kind of what are you doing differently than you maybe you did three or four years ago? Where do you think the marketing departments around you need to kind of going with this work? You know, I touch on a little bit. I'd pull back on a common I made earlier, which is, you know, really alignment between the C suite and the role of marketing. I mean, is there shared understanding of the role of marketing, the priorities, the Kpis, and then how do you work collectively, collaboratively with the CFO to keep those kpis accurate and forward looking? Domini had a great conversation couple weeks ago and he shared what he sees lots of marketers doing is making an investment and then looking at results in the rearview mirror, versus what we're really trying to accomplish, you know, for the business. So that's when you get, you know, a large investment and then you talk about click through rates, which has no meaning in the Er understanding of what that translates in into the organization. So I think it's really you know, how do you stay close to the CFO. I agree with you. It's not a it's not a lack of trust from behavior. I think it's really a lack of trust because there's a lack of understanding. Yeah, no, I actually so. Everyone knows, in these conversations that I had with these guys, one of the things that I challenged them on was, okay, so, when was the last time you sat down with your marketing team and told them this is the game that we're playing her, here's how you score, here's the penalty box and how you get in the penalty box. Right, this, this, these are the rules of the game. What was the last time you actually had that conversation, as opposed to roll in your eyes and somehow they're supposed to read your mind? Right? And all of them were like, well, actually, I don't think I've ever had that conversation in my entire career. Right. So I do think that that is a huge, huge part of it, without doubt. Right, it gives them the chance to say, look, it's great if you want to use somehow use MTA internally within your organization, if it means something to you, right, but don't give it to us because we don't right park. I think there's a there's an issue there too. It's not an excuse, but I think there's an explanation for why a lot of marketing functions struggle with that impact attribution conversation. I think it's because the job of the marketers changed. In the past, being a generous that was a really good thing because you can get lots of things done. But now, with the acceleration of technology, the complexity of data and all the things you mentioned that are head wins to managing data, I think the marketing org needs. Most marketing wors, I think are configured in an old way. The new way has to have really smart experts on the data side, on the operation side, on the tech side, on the science side of marketing, and a lot of marketers, I think, try to play both. They try to play the you know, the the world they came from. They came from the creative function, of the demanjain function, of the analytics function, and then they try to go across that. And I think you have to surround your marketing leadership team with with experts and specialists, not just generalist, so that you can rely on someone to help you. Have that conversation with all the facts and data, so you can sit around and say, what are our real kpis? How are we really get to measure them? And you have someone who's obsessed about the measurement of that and and that allows then you are leaders, to take that data as an...

...input and use it to lead, versus having to be responsible for also pulling it together and also analyzing it and also trying to figure out what story it tells you. I think there's a bit of a role evolution that's occurring and a need for more of the science type skills in the marketing function. But I think about just myself, right, I mean I I'm I'm old enough and at been in marketing long enough where I came out of that original creative pain right, and if I was truly honest today, I would have to say that I this is a great irony given what I do for living today. But but I hated that in school, hating it right. It's a part of my decision around professional direction I chose was I looked around and I said, wow, and marketing stuff. It looks like a ton of fun and it doesn't involve math, except for keeping a check book. Right keeping your budget, and so that seemed really great. You know, and I think that a lot of marketers are feeling that right where it's they're kind of like, Hey, man, this wasn't part of the original deal, right at LEASTA. What are you what are you thinking? I just think back across some of the last twenty five years and I have often found that marketing leaders tend to come from one of the disciplines of marketing and that's usually either anchored in art and creativity or science. It's rare when you find someone that has a command of both. I think debby's a good example of something that has a command of both. If you don't find that often, and then even taking that one step further, those often times of resistance, and so I when I look for my people, I tend to look for the marketers that have not just been okay with going on the hook for a number, so to speak, but also sought it out. They were looking for opportunities with the organizations with we wanted a marketer that really wanted to have accountability for business impact and link it to the financial performance that company. Those were my people and so I would always seek them out and when I was on the agency side, I would seek them out and offer to help them make that that transition, transform their functions to do that. If up front somebody was resistance to that science, embracing of that science, I knew they weren't my people, and that could be even the organizations that didn't want marketing to be thought of that way. And I'm like, okay, that is such a great point. Actually wanted one of the ways that you know. I mean, I guess that purpose of any initial sales process should be to get a prospect to disqualify themselves as rapidly as possible, and so one of the questions that we ask prospects it prove is how do you feel about the science behind climate change study? And if they they don't like it, if they don't agree with it right, they are very unlikely to be approved. Customer were right because you had you know, the analytics are going to tell you whether you're right or wrong in a particular perception that you have, and if your belief is the most important thing, then that's going to be a problem. And so it's using that example as a proxy. It is the same thing. You're talking about the the so we ask you this, right, because this kind of personalizes it a bit more. So we all know that having really old friends is a wonderful, wonderful thing, and the older we get, the more priceless that becomes. Right. The flip of that, of course, is that is usually some of our oldest friends who have the hardest time releasing us from the way we used to be, right, the box that they have kind of put us in, the way they've defined us. Right. What do you think the secret is here in terms of because I do think that a lot of business people, right, particularly folks who have been business leaders for quite some time, have put marketers in a box and they won't allow them out of the box. They will allow them to change and become different. Right. So how do you deal with that? What would you say to the listeners here that are probably going, yeah, you know what I actually I had thought about it in those terms. That's exactly what's happening to me. I think if you don't fight your way out of that box us and you don't become a transformation on marketing leader, your replacement...

...will be a transformational marking leader and you have to find a way. You know, and every marketing role I've ever had. I've always been good friends with finance and the CFO and I think they will be your biggest advocate if you provide a plan and data and ideas that drive the business results. And you know, there are some companies that just don't want to hear it, because then there are some CEOS it just don't believe in the value of marketing and and those companies are not destined for great things. But in the majority of cases, I think the marketer is is capable of getting out of that box. But they have to be brave, they have to have a plan, they have to think about numbers and science and a Alytics, that have to have the political cloud and the resources in the organization and they've got to fight their way through it or the just going to be another statistic on the turnover right and I look at like the marketer as the every company's going through transformation right now and and the marketer is is the person that can drive that. There the the linkage between the business and its customers and that engine can be so transformational and so impactful and change the productory of a company and I think that's a that's a really exciting thing for a marking leader today. But you have to you have to embrace that idea. So you've actually led big transformation projects. How don't you see this and what what sort of the timeline and so and kind of the benchmarks to marketing organization or individual market or kind of breaking out of the boxes? Well, that's a that's a big question. So I really at a high level when I look at those organizations the companies themselves, that if it's parents a business transformation and marketings role in that and what marketing needs to do to transform, to be enablers of that business transformation. The timelines have varied through the years. It appears to be on this three to four year road now, and that's assuming that they've been adequately resourced and supported and embraced and enabled. I have seen that done much faster and it just depends on both the external factors, ie. A pandemic that might accelerate the organization's willingness to embrace marketings new role and that organization right, that could be an accelerator. In other cases I've seen it unfold over a longer period of time where the marketer might have been ahead of the rest of the business and had to work really hard to sell that organization's leaders on why the organizations should transform, maybe innovate new business models, meet their customers where they're apt, and then had to go through the business of transport, warming marketing. I just think that there are so many factors that influence that I'd be hard pressed to just say here's the number. I I've experienced both personally now, where I worked to transform a marketing function probably a little bit ahead of where that business was at and how they viewed marketing, and that was a long four years. Then I've been I you know, I came to Pharaoh technologies. I came here because the CEO told me he wanted to transform from an engineering driven, sales let organization to a market led, marketing driven organization, which I thought was the Unicorn why I had to sign on for the job. And between that see now on this reception of marketings role and the pandemic accelerating, some acceptance of maybe better balancing where marketing invested its dollars. That's happened much faster. I'd say that we are two years in and then principally now get to leverage this transformed engine. So really shows you how interactive the whole thing is. Right. It's like it's you have to have a percipant on the other side of the fans. Actually can't do it in a vacuum. You can optimize that journey if you have a solid framework in a road map to execute and tell the story along. But there's so many factors that be I it you and I have had linked it to here. What are your thoughts? You, you know I've learned from you through the years. You've transformed organizations and more cotting functions. No, I think you captured it. I think you captured it while least. So really it's it's hard to put a number on but and I think maintaining you know. You know being Angele and it's certainly you're going to set out with a plan that. The only thing we know is the plan won't be static, right.

So it's you know, it's evolving. I'm sure you didn't plan on a pandemic as you joined that Unicorn position of yours. So you know, things change and there's there's no difference with the CMO than any other business leader. We've got to remain Angele else that you know I'm thinking of this one like I wonder if the transformations ever done, and so if you kind of ever put a date on it's almost like the the the the transformation is about moving the metrics up into the right and so it's it's are we getting more efficient? Are we producing more? Are we delivering better? Are we able to articulate more? And and that's never it's a mission that will never be achieved and never be accomplished. But also that, I think it's the fun part is in articulating where you are and where you are now and where you're going and always having a goal that's ahead of where you are and always trying to push even if you're running it. One thing I really dislike as a marketing leader is the whole process of bench marking and and benchmarking to compare yourself to an average of others. I think he always have to be any pushing to exceed where you are and and that's important part to put in the conversation of transformation. We're going to keep doing it even when we talk. I've man, that's such a great point. I mean the problem with benchmarking is that it's always a comparison about stuff that happened in the past under a given set of circumstances. That probably does not exist that way today. Right. I mean one of the one of the biggest reasons why, to your point, Dominic, this is a perpetual thing is that the circumstances that are either impeding the efficacy of marketing or any other part of a business right or accelerating it amplifying it, are always changing. Right, and this is actually one of the biggest areas that businesses in general, and certainly functions, don't factor into the equation, is what kind of stuff is going on around me that is either helping or hurting my stuff to succeed? Right, all the stuff I don't control. What's IT'S IMPACT? One of the greatest ironies about this is like competitor act, and most people would immediately assume that their actions by their competitors would be a headwind for their performance any and it might be, but it's a it's a really interesting comment that most of the time competitor actions are actually a Tailwin. YERE's right. It's usually whether it's building an overall category or there's just all kinds of stuff going on there that is actually a mutual benefit that people don't really think that. We my company. We you know the solutions we sell. One of those markets happens to be an established market where you could argue the technology has been widely adopted in embrace for decades now, for decades. We have two other markets where they're just now beginning to digitally transform how they do business and how d scanning might enable that digital transformation. New Concept entirely. And so when you think about competitive actions that might happen in those two spaces, it's driving adoption. We're like, who, okay, Tailwin. Now we're going to get a double down on that. Yeah, how do we jump across the chasm? We got a whole bunch of people telling prospect to do it and and when we all win because of it. Yeah, agree, guys, this has been awesome. You really have brought a great thinking to the table today, not only about kind of the problems behind some of the surveys, but mainly about where we can go from here and what's what's really going to be necessary to transform what is oftentimes the most pivotal part of any business. You know, I mean it's sort of ironic actually that we're even having this conversation because the analytics would say that if there was any organization that should not ever have to worry about, it's Rol I. It would be marketing, because ten million dollars are marketing, I'm just picking this number, pays off in so many different ways across time and space, and not just the impact on sales. Right, it could be it could be a lot of other things right. So it's really great. Marketing creates so much value that the shame of the whole thing is that marketers are actually leaving most of it on the table, unidentified and unacknowledged.

So my personal clothes on this was if we solve that problem, we have solved the problem of these endless surveys. That's definitely when you think about marketers having an impact on the business, making sure that those dollars have an impact, but then being able to prove that impact as equally as important. But it's worth it. Yeah, guys, thanks so much. Really enjoy world it all. You guys that are in the audience. I know you're going to have a ton of questions, that this kind of episode generally creates a laundry list of stuff beneath it. When we post on Linkedin. Lisa and Debbie and Dominic, I'm sure, will be around when we post it, and if you want to engage with them directly below this podcast, please do so, and I'm always there as well. So we'll see you next week with more accelerating value. The sooner you can optimize your marketing spend, the quicker you can start delivering clear, measurable value to Your Business. That's exactly where business GPS from. Proof analytics can help learn more at proof analytics DOT AI. You've been listening to accelerating value, where raw conversations about the journey to business impact help you weather the storm ahead. To make sure you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. Until next time,.

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