Accelerating Value
Accelerating Value

Episode · 1 year ago

Sangram Vajre: You Can't Create Value Without Empathy for Others

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

The conventional wisdom is that you should avoid mixing the professional with the personal…

But that’s wrong.


Often, getting better in one makes you better in the other.


Just ask Sangram Vajre, Chief Evangelist and Co-Founder at Terminus, who approaches improving as a family man with the same zeal as his marketing.


And he’s always adding value in either domain.


In this episode, we discuss:

- Learning what energizes you so you can add value for others

- Why great leaders ask questions, not just bark orders

- How the personal and pr

Keep connected with Accelerating Value on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or our website.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Accelerating Value in your favorite podcast player.

Today, every budget approval is an investment deal. If you're a marketer, sales or business leader, you had to promise to deliver value and impact. Writing. The wave to get there is hard enough. Finding your way through the storm is even harder. If you're looking for that path forward so that you don't wipe out. You've come to the right place. Let's get into the show. Hey, everybody, this is Mark Stue with accelerating value, the weekly podcast that explores all the different aspects of value creation. What you need to do to create it, what you need to do to defend it, to prove it out, how you see it at different points in your career, how you see it versus other people on your team. Right, how do you close those gaps? All that kind of stuff is stuff that we cover today. We have a really premo guest, right. I mean there are guests and then there are guests that are known by a single name, so kind of like Madonna or Bano. Right. So if you, if you know anything about marketing, and you don't know the names, Sang Room, saying froom Vajra. The thing I would submit that there's some remedial work that you need to do. Well, either that or, you know, people just could never pronounce my last name right to this, dropped it and just get both with the post thing. Right. I think that that I suffer with the same problem. I mean you know there's endless versions of my last name, right, yeah. But but you know you also were blessed with a very distinctive first name, right, particularly in the in the American market. Right. Yeah. And so between that and and kind of your persona, who you are, what you've done with it? Right? I actually do think, all joking aside, that most people in marketing would if you said the name Sang Room, they're only referring to you. We have maybe not that many sang rooms in the marketing world. But on the name name parts interesting. My son and I mark. He was like, well, why is that a name? Like his name is Koresh and last name is vager. I says like so, what does it mean? I don't know. Will to just google it and we google it. So people get Google the sing and in English meaning of this word is kind of fascinating. I don't know if I've ever shared this with you, but the English meaning of Sang Room is lightning. Apparently, I believe that expiry Yap. Yeah, and actual well, you think about that. And then the last name, vagre A, means bold, soling, bold, and you know, my son was so fired up after that gotten versation. His name now, more than anything, that's awesome and you know, I think that, as people already is any of our viewers are picking up if they've never seen you before. Right. I mean, part of what makes you special is that you have a rather electric presence, right, and when you're on stage or you're in person or you're on a podcast, that really comes through, and I think that people also, you know, one of the things that people say about you a lot is that part of the value that you bring is that they can they can tell that you really care about them personally, even if you're even if you're talking to a group of five hundred people, right, that it's a very personal experience with you. So let's start there, right. Yeah, how do you? I mean you are kind of a media personality. You get around, you're on a lot of podcast you're...

...on a lot of stages, maybe not so much in the last year, but but not a zooms, a lot of zooms. Right, there's anybody who's going to have zoom fatigue. It's going to be you right, I definitely do so. So how do you how do you transmit value in your in your own mind, is you're interacting with audiences, how do you transmit value, not just to this morphous group of people but to individuals? How do you connect, particularly given all the filters that we have to deal with? Yeah, it's a great question mark and again, thank you for saying everything you said. I would definitely mail you the check later on the podcast. It's sometime back. I heard, and this is really true in the church world, which is you gotta you got to put the person in your mind before you walk on the stage, right. So for me, I always think about who is this presentation for and I would start kind of just forming them in my head and this is for Joe, this is for Gel, and they're like thirty two reel marketer who are just trying to get through the day and they're not. They're stuck in leaves and they're frustrated. So I would like literally gear up my frustration and almost get into that person off is like, and I just speak to that one person in my head. So that allows me to just hopefully be as emotionally connected with that one person. And if the audience is right, but I'm the right room, that's typically connects with everybody because some of that has what either they have experienced before or they're experiencing right now or they can tell that they're going to experience pretty soon. So it allows me to just walk into their life for it for a moment and be with them as if I'm there and and then bring it and bring them out like a look, that's not it's not bloom and doom. It's like there is a better way, there is a better future, there is a better promised land, and that allows me to dent take them on a journey with me in that conversation. But that initial moment of recognizing not that I'm on the stage and that makes me special or says I'm the right there with you, sitting in the seats and feeling the pain as you do, is a very important moment of any presentation, any conversation. So I you know right now, when people are listening to this and then you and I are both trying to get them to recognize that look, everyone has value to give and everyone has value to receive and in that exchange of value is really where great legacies are created, great conversations are created, and it takes a moment for you to recognize that you have value and they have value and this is purely, like, you know, a blessing that we get to do that. How much of your ability to do that today do you feel like is stuff that you have learned you the easy way or the hard way, versus who you are intrinsically, understanding that it's always both end it took me a while to except, like just literally accept that as a gift. Quite frankly, in the early days I felt like it was necessity. Right, we're building a business, I have to be out there talking about if I didn't and if I didn't feel the passion, I didn't create all the things that I created, we wouldn't have a business to run. So to me it was as necessity. That is what it is. But after some point it was not necessary for me to do it. And then I did reach a point where I was like so now, am I just doing this for ego, or am I like loving this thing, or am I just narcissist about myself that I am the most important person in the room. What is it? Because you get to that point where you just recognize that...

...you did what you needed to do, but you don't need to do it anymore, or you actually have done so much of it that you get really good at it and now it's a choice that you need to figure out. Like, is that really what it is, because that's not what I thought. That's if you ask my parents, they would be like man, that guy fail, like, you know, three time in English and he's written like writing three books. It doesn't it doesn't equate, it doesn't match up. So what do your question is like, did you become that? I do become, I feel like I did. I did become some of my own creation of sorts, and I and it took me a while, honestly, almost a therapy session, if you will, recognizing is this, is this me, or is this somebody else? Like I had to have that moment of conversation with Myself Elf and my wife and, like, you know, is this me or is this a two faced person, like just trying to be, trying to do something that I'm not? And the the reality is, like all the things that you're talking about, is like, am I able to connect with people at scale, even in a room of five hundred or three thousand, and I realize that I've always told stories when I'm I'm presenting marketing, like I hardly have presented anything without my personal family story. Like you have seen some of those presentation. Talk my kids, I talked about my wife, I talked about the relations. So to me, I found a voice. Is like this is how I can be authentic of who I am. I'm not someone who would just go in like here is the big framework in the world and the board of business is going to change, without actually telling a personal story, because that is such a big part of who I am. So I feel like I've just found a way for me to be me by connecting the dots, like I'm gonna just another guy. I'm a dad, I'm a husband and I got a ton of things going on that it's not perfect. I'm learning how to be a great dad, I'm learning how to be a great husband, and but that is not different than learning to be a great marketer. And somehow I try to connect the dots there and again. That's another way to just connect to the audience in the room. So what I've become and the value. Going back to the value conversation, that I feel like is that it took me almost a year mark to realize that it's a gift and if I don't continue to focus on it and harness on it, it's just it will be a wasted gift. So why don't use it? Do you find today that it's easier for you to to do that in large groups or one on one? It's a great question. It's I was talking to one of the one of the folks, I think it was yesterday, like late last night, about this exact thing. He's like, Hey, they're like these, you know, eight or nine CEOS and founders. They would love for you to be one on one mentor them or at one on one, and I said I can't, like it will suck the day life out of me and it, and it sounded very weird even say that, but I just quickly recognize that's just not what would give me energy and order period of time. The money would be good, the opportunity be fun, but it's not something that will give me energy. What I would rather do is almost great a mastermind and bring these eight people together, have the community feel in it, let them all learn from each other because I very quickly get what else am I going to say them? Like I don't have they gonna figure out I got nothing more than what I've said before. So I'm maybe an insecurity of myself in a sense. I'm like, but if I put these ten people together and actually challenged and help them all to grow together, at the end of the year will actually have a better outcome than they all individually. Just spending time with me plus a change. It changes the dynamic completely. You start adding doing that right. Yeah, it's a multiplied effect in many ways. I think at one on one I can only do so much, and I may do that at for some really, really, really like deeper conversation that somebody wants to...

...have. Like you and I've had really deep conversations. It makes sense, but I can't have that level of conversation with every single person. It would just not give me energy and I don't think I'll add that much value to their life after certain like maybe three people or four be I'm like done, I got nothing. Yeah, yeah, it's a great point. You know, a long time ago I was pretty active in presidential politics and things like that, right, and worked with a lot of politicians at the you know, operating mainly at the national and state levels, and without exception, the same was true for them. Right, they either were pure magic in small groups or oneonone and, you know, kind of did Yoman like service to large crowds, right, but just kind of generally uninspiring, or they were the inversion of that, right and and I think that it is it is very, very difficult to be both, particularly if if you are doing a lot of it and you're pouring yourself out in front of large groups. The same could be true, by the way, in the reverse. You know, a good friend of mine is a is a pretty well known life coach who still isn't private practice and he limits his big on stage stuff because the the personal part of what he does is requires almost all the energy he has. Yeah, it does, and you know, in many ways it is an energy equation of sorts. But I think you're not both. Know Any Stanley, and he talked about this this thought of like you know, you know, for you you need to like you don't know if you can ever fill somebody's cup, but you can always make sure that you empty your cup into the life and I feel it's a really important statement to think about it. At the same time, if Your Cup is empty, you know that you have to go to somebody else to fill it, so you better not drive something like you can. Claire's that thought anything like what are you when you run out of border? Like, what do you? What do you do? And and I think that's what happens to a lot of us and I think it's a it's a problem of saying yes to too many things and not recognizing that you're you. You'R yes is actually not adding value anymore. It's negative. I would give you a great example. Mark like I remember in the early days of terminus, I walked in a meeting and you mentioned this. Like I drus, I like I think my default it is high energy, and then after that I don't know what I got, but it's that's what I am like. I want to walk in and I it's not I don't have to artifically pump myself up. I just walk in with that because I'm excited to meet people and have conversation. It gets me going. The longer I'm actually get more energized, because that there is a I get energy from conversations. So I walk into this team meeting and at that day, from whatever reason, I was flat. I was literally flat. It was like a gas came out of every you know, a big vehicle, and there's like every there's nothing left, and I just walked in them begin just as sad as if I sank in the seed and it sat there and it wasn't exactly meeting. And I didn't realize at the end of those twenty, twenty five minutes the entire energy of the room became flat, because I would bring in so much energy, to the excitement to what we're trying to do and stuff, that I realize that now I'm actually doing the opposite of it, because people expected me to have energy and when I walked in the way I walk in the way, I grabbed it away. I hug people, I want to add bring a certain amount of energy. So when I didn't do that and I walked in that meeting, I would have been better off canceling that meeting. Yeah, so I was a negative that day for the very thing that I'm good at. So I think I realized that day is like I would never again walk in a meeting like that like empty glass to because that the people expect me to fill their glass. I need to...

...have my glass fall and there are days when they're not and I would rather have no meeting that day, because it doesn't add value to anything. Yeah, it it actually is, you know, a highly personal take on resource allocation versus value creation, right, which is what we all deal with professionally all the time. Right. I also think that, you know, a side point to all this is, you know, I so, my wife is a lot like you. Right. So, Debbie is a true extrovert. And and basically, the way I've learned to explain this to people is that if she and I go to a party, she will exit the party at one am far more energized than when she arrived. And I joke around with her that she's really an energy parasite, right, because she basically drains everybody else, right. And Yeah, like a vampire. Right, and whereas I am a person that I recharge by being by myself. And what you see today in terms of what appears to be marks does the extrovert. It is true, right, I have become that. So, just like what you were talking about earlier, how you've sort of grown into a what might have started out as a persona right has become you. Same thing for me. I have a lot of I've learned how to be an extrovert so well that I in some ways really am one today, because I it's not like I sit here and fake it, but the but I don't. But but like it. One Am when I when we leave that party, I'm just like freaking poured out on the ground, right, I mean I just have literally nothing more to give. Yeah, I did. It is, it, is it. But that votes makes your relationship probably fun, because, if you had to into words, the both of been looking outside the window and not, you know, out of but out of one would actually take the other person out of like hey, just stop looking, let's just go out, and I think that's what probably makes well, they don't don't. I tell you what. That's true, except for one moment, and that's one. AM, ha ha, that is good. Yeah, yeah, she's ready to right, and I'm just like so, so, yeah, I so, let's so let's talk about that, right, because that is that's actually whether you're talking about relationships or whether you're talking about a business decision, figuring out how to spend a limited resource for maximum impact, for maximum value, understanding that there's always elements to the equation in both situations and all situations that you don't control and that you might not even know about ever. Right. How do you think about that today? Like you could kind of short hand this question as prioritization, right, but it's a it's more than just that. Yeah, yeah, to me I still think about everything I do as a is a multiplader effect and I try to use that as a lens for everything. So, for example, throughout the day, if we look at our calendars today, they're crazy. Everyone's calendar is crazy. We have less time, but everybody has the same amount of time. So what allows me to be a founder of a faster and company like terminus at the same time build a community like peak and then write book? You know, you just if you look at it, you're like, oh, that's crazy, and then do a daily podcast and then you start adding things to be on boards. You know, the chances of me being able to effectively do that all of it would be slim to none. But I think what happens to what I've learned is that, well, you know what, let's...

...figure out a way to do what I do best, what I have the most value creation part of it and really just do that and everything else absolutely have to be delegated. Case in point podcast. I do nothing other than have great conversations and I'm from day one. Never even from day one I said I'm going to aspose everything from writing a blog around it, creating graphics around it, it, audio engineering, video engineering, all that stuff. We gave it to sweet fish media from day one because I knew that's not going to be my thing and I've see a lot of I'm amazing, creators spend a ton of Tom doing all that stuff. As a matter of fact, I don't know if you remember, but Guy Kawasaki, like of all people in the world, he was on alive and he told me that. Well, I do. I take out arms and as. I'm like, why do you do that? He's like, well, I like it to be perfect, like a talk. I'm like, but it's the most forgiving channer in the world. It's a conversation. Yeah, when I have a conversation I have arms and OS. Why would I take that out? So he's like, man, that just saved me eight hours a week. And now think a week as back got to think, cause a lot of that's a lot of value going down the tube, right, you know? Yeah, so he's like, I'm going to stop doing that, and it's recorded, it's on and when I did that, lie with them and I'm realizing that how many of us, it doesn't really matter what level you are, we all have the ability to figure out our lane of genius. Is How I phrase that in frame. That is figured out your lane of genius, be really good at it and do that and everything else is outsourced. And what it will be humbling. humbling. It definitely was humbling to me. There's my one. I went down and said my lane of genius. It quickly shrunk to a couple of things and it's a humbling experience, but it's a good one because then you can recognize that these are my gifts, these are my choices and everything at every moment that I spend not on this, I'm giving up something that I think God has gifted us to give to the world one so when you when you start putting it in context, it starts to recognize it's a multiplying effect. What you're doing is now you're teaching somebody like I need you to do all podcasting stuff when I'm doing the book writing. I'm not writing a single word. I'm audio talking about it. I have an editor who helps me pull it all together. So it's my ideas, my concepts, but I'm not writing pen and paper. I just don't have the time. I need somebody to do it and even if I had the time I would be horrible at it and it will be a book that will come in the next decade when the things are already over and out. So it won't make any sense, it won't be any gift to anybody. So it's a matter of prioritization. But to me, if I have to put a different Lens on it, Mark for people is find your lane of genius, stick to it and figure out how you can get everybody everything else that you're not. That's not new lane of genius for others to lead and take it forward. Absolutely I think that that, speaking as a startup founder and CEO Right one of the things that you really you have to figure that out right and and one of the one of the things that you also really realize, if you haven't already realized it earlier in your career, is that your success is inextricably bound up in the contributions of everyone else around you and that, in fact, outside of that area of genius that you contribute, most of the s says is somebody else's right. Yeah, and yeah, so you said, by definition is in many ways. I don't know if it's been defined anywhere or not, but I was looked at. Leadership is, by definition, is how do you make how do you help other people to get stuff done? And that's pretty much it. And that means you're not doing it and it sounds. Initially I used to think that was a cop out, but I think now it's not a cop out. It's actually the way you need to do so people feel fulfilled because they're good at it and they love that and I would hate doing what all the other thing that...

I said I'm not good at. But a lot of people just try to do everything and and get sucked into it. Yeah, I know it's you know, one of my big strengths is, I mean, calling yourself a polymaths it's sort of like not done right. But if I but if I had to, if I had to, you know, be honest for just a moment, right. That kind of skill set is very much me, and so I used to think that what that the natural output of that was phenomenal ideas that were highly synergistic across seemingly unrelated topics, right, and and that I was sort of like that seed planter, right, that architect. And then I, and then I, and then I came to the realization, which is sort of the way I op great today, that that my ability to synergize all this stuff should mean that I ask even better questions, that it's not my job to come up with the solution. It's my job, as as leader and CEO and all that kind of stuff, right, to ask my team really really penetrating questions that not only, you know, kind of reveal at a more discrete or tactical level, you know, kind of like you know, advantages and disadvantages and all this kind of stuff, right, but to ask them questions that make them come up with a brilliant answer that maybe I would not have seen. Yeah, and and that is and that is really that's kind of very much the way I operate today. Right. And I think that a lot of people who've known me for a long time kind of sort of wonder what has happened because, you know, for a lot of people I come across as much quieter and even more self effacing in some respects, versus, you know, maybe ten years ago, when I was anything but quiet and self effacing. And and they and part of that, I think, is is is just what I feel like I've learned, you know, setting setting aside business for a second, right, just intrinsically about my own life and what I'm supposed to be in this world. But part of it also is my job is to get maximum leverage and to help other people deliver maximum leverage, and part of that is empowering them. And you don't really empower people by giving them a brilliant insight that you happen to have, right. You empower them by asking them. It's actually very socratic. You ask them the right questions and it brings them to the right answer. I mean this is another you know, Jesus certainly operated this way. Other people have operated this way, you know, where they ask very provocative questions that make you kind of come to a conclusion that you might not otherwise have come to. Right. So, yeah, I do that with the W with curse. Sometimes I would ask him like well, says like it dad, this they you know, this is what happened. It's cool. He's ten and I'll say I used to tell him what you hey, that's not good or that's bad, or like. I literally give him my reaction as a dad, and lately I think I've been like, so, what do you think? Well, what happened? So, what? What? What's so, you know, let me, let I'll just go on on a series of these questions with them after some pointies like that. Why are you asking with all these questions? But Oh, the last year or two mark, I think he has learned to think critically, he has...

...learned to understand. Well, I know you're going to ask me that, like you know, what would I thought? So let me just tell you what I thought, and here's what it is. He would give me some of that. So he's now getting wired to just go through the process of thinking as opposed to me telling yes or no or whatnot. And I think a lot of times leadership gets limited with your responses to the people that work with you. So so based on not only how great your questions are, but what kind of responses you have for them, will actually turn into value creation. So I feel I look at cracis like Oh, I got. This is a full on experimental experiment that every parent gets to have, like a there, there, oh my, all right, this did work. All right, tomorrow I'm going to try something different. So you know, you're just what you would remember what happened yesterday. So you get a little bit of a saving grace there. But that's what I'm learning. Is Like, Oh, the less I tell him what to do, the better our conversation become and the more thoughtful he's becoming in his ways of responding and thinking and acting towards it, and the less I have to tell him what to do what not to do, because my job is not to tell him what to do for his life. My job is to prepare him to do what to do for the rest of like to have the discernment to it. So how do we add that? The leadership component level is the same. Thing is like our job is to not tell people what to do, but do help them at the discernment of how you want to do it. So then this is a perfect segue. Okay, so you've just touched on a couple of things right. One of them is time lag. Right, so you're putting seeds into your son that are going to germinate and grow and bloom at different rates across his life, right, and so you know, hopefully you'll be around to see some of that, but some of it is guaranteed to probably be outside of your own lifetime, right, if for no other reason than it gets passed on to his children and all that kind of stuff. Right. So there is this ripple effect, there is a time lag and there is a need to monetize. We're going to use kind of a crass term, right, and I want to I want everyone to know I'm using this very loosely. You can apply it to business and you can also there are other ways in relationships that things come to flower or monetize. Right. How do you so? You mentioned all the different things that you're doing right now. These are all going to monetize a different rates. So, for example, you, you have turned down these mentorship opportunities that probably would have brought in a lot of immediate cash. You probably have are limiting your board seat work for the same reason. Yeah, yet that comes at a near term cost. How do you balance this in your own life? Right, and and you know, certainly relationally, but but really in more hard core kinds of terms right. How do you balance the the financial portfolio that you're essentially running? I think the the time lag is a big, big factor. Do this. The the portion that makes me wonder all the time is do we do I have the right end in mind? And you know, you probably heard of this phrase, like start with end in mind, and I find myself asking this question more often than not. Do I have the right end in mind? Right in that fort and I feel free to revise that answer. Right, right, I get I we have to we have to write. And even me, when me and my wife men meet and I we talked about she's not a fond of this idea. I'm like, we should write of our own eulogy because it is going to help us think about it as we're going to writing our will for our kids, even though...

...we're not like, we're not, we're not that. Hopefully you're not ding morrow, but we're in a process of writing our will and we're like, one of the things I want to do is I want to write. What do I expect or what do I dream? Run expert is a bad word. What do I dream for our family to be a about? So, for example, I think about every relationship. Every conversation that I think about like what my family is like a company where me and my wife are the CO founders of it and we got a couple of budding high performers, you know, coming out of our family. And so that means we got to have a vision statement. We gotta have core values, just like any good business should have. So our vision statement is this. watters always make it through with God's Love, grace and truth. That's our vision statement. We came together as a family saying that that's what would be a great, great thing twenty years from now if our kids and our family is known for the love that we have for each other and other and people around us, that we always show grace to others. That will be our first and foremost thing. But we would expect nothing but truth from each other. We don't need to lie, we don't need to be down bushes, we just need to be honest with each other. If that happens, then it's a great legacy to leave and we took time to think through that and and our love and grace and truth our core values, so people, that kids can remember that. So I'm dumbfounded when I hear a lot of coome people like, Oh, I never thought about it. We don't have a mission statement and it sounds very marketing e and very business, but God will tell you, mark, it's the funnest thing to do with the kids. The funnest thing to do in a business is when you actually start up business and you get them rallied around the core values like a terminus. We had one on team and keys to the Ferrari. Those are our core values. It got people to think like they're a team. I don't say family. I was a team. We're a team over there. You all have keys to the Ferrari, which means you get it, drive as fast as you can. We trust you. You're on the driver's seat. So these things are super important and and the ballad that there is. Once you start putting words around it, it actually creates a wrapper that you can then look at and use that as a lens for every decision you make. So when Chrish cops home, having him back, it's a positioning exercise to totally is Tory. So it's the same thing for your business. It is the same thing for your life. And I'm like, I don't know to to Vanma, I feel like I've landed in the world of business somehow. So I take and take anything from business and applied to my family. Maybe you actually be doing the reverse, but I look at this like I can't have two different ways. Like, if businesses, this is how to run. I don't understand why a family financial statement and of as a family will and a family wouldn't have a vision and core values. To me we should and I think the more I've done it as a family, the better I've felt about okay, now I understand and at least we know what to work on. We know where we are stumbling where, we know where we need to re reentergazem focus. Do you find that it bleeds back and forth. So, for example, right, we were as about my wife about this all the time. So she's she's pretty seen. You're in a large professional consultancy, right, and I guess it was just probably like ten years ago one morning, you know, we were kind of at getting all the kids ready and I was getting ready to do my thing and she was getting ready to do her thing and she started talking about our deliverables and it it was a it was a hilarious weird choice because it was a total bleed out from her professional life into our family right here. Your deliverables. This is you know, and you're like deliverables, right, I don't have deliverables right in this context, right, do you find? You find that you that that there are, oh hundred percent ither...

...things that you shouldn't do at all from business wall to family. Like some for example, when when there's a problem that my wife would have at work, I would I would tell her like, oh, I got a three point formula to solve this problem, that you have, bad idea. All she wanted to be is listen and not do that right, but it was hard. You like say, okay, that's bad idea, I shouldn't be doing that. I this is my my job here is to listen, be empathetic about it. I don't. She doesn't need a solution from me. So in the many ways, yeah, they're they're big nonos that you don't want to bring back, but there are big opportunities where you like, you know, that just helps that justifying. The worst thing that I'm seeing, mark of all things, is that when when we look at the idea that business is business and personal is personal, and then you look at the idea that no business is personal, and I'm thinking about like no personal is business right, like it's a it's a it's there. Is that that integration, as you say, about certain concepts, that is that has crossover, and your will be better served if you can recognize what those are and and play it to the strengths that they bring to the relationship at work and even your personal life. But I think we have earned too much around the fact that I took zero responsibility towards my home orientation and I take full responsibility at my work orientation. And then then there's a tension there that that requires the ton of attention. So in both of these circumstances, based on what you've said today, I would say that your natural bias is towards a longer time horizon. Would that be true? Long, like as long as possible, note dates, no timeline. It's like this is like, you know, it's almost as far as like it's something that you would probably never achieve but you will always be in a pursuit of. would be the way I would look at it. And so how do you balance that with the the requirement that you that you personally or your business or whatever has right now. Well, that there, there you go. That's one of the reason I'm not in the operating role of the business. So I got whether people in the operating who are thinking about this, but this is a really good point mark, because a nation's do what I think we get to do right now. It's extremely hard, as you initially said, about trying to be both, trying to be operating excellence and then also evangelic, almost evangelists the way I think about my role. And but both are important because both creates the right kind of business model. But imagine if all you did was operating side of the house, but not having this this pain that you can carry through the customers, where they felt that you understood their problem and had a long term vision for something that exceeds everything operationally that you need to do that month or that quarter. You'll always be if we all are always incentive to fix what is in front of us as quickly as we can because we feel in control, and then everything that is outside, we feel it is out of control, out of sight, and I think thereby this is a really important if you if somebody could do both, amazing, all power to them, but typically you'd have two people do that and they respect each other's roles. The respect each other's ability to execute on those and are looking forward to that healthy debates and healthy tension in the organization. So I get to be in board meetings, I get to be our executive meeting talking about well, that's great for the next quarter of what we're doing in the product release, but I'm hearing from our customers that what they want in the future would be something like this. So why don't we start looking at an acquisition that does that? While we're doing that now, that is not something somebody who's in the day to day, who's trying to release a product feature next month, is going to...

...be thinking about. So there's a healthy relationship that can be brought into it, but it's hard. It's hard. It's not easy saying room. Thank you so much. This has been everything that I I thought it would be and more, and I'm sure that that everyone's listening to it is is going to be kind of blown away by this conversation, just the way that it went. I love it, man. You know we it's it's nothing is scripted. It's all on the fly for us to just tell our hearts out so thank you for for letting it go in the direction it went. No, absolutely. And for those of you who don't know this, the very first in person conversation that sang room and I ever had was in Montana and marketing event and we recorded a another podcast that I used to do called mega value live and we did it outdoors, kind of right on the main drag in this in this town in Montana, and and you could hear the occasional eighteen wheeler go by and the Harley go by and it was highly atmospheric. Yeah, so what I'm going to do when we when we release this podcast, is I'm gonna have a link to that first one right and you can. You can listen to both of them and there's a lot of compare and contrast there probably many ways, but there's also a lot of continuity that I think you might find really interesting. So again, thanks buddy. Appreciate it very much. Thank you, mark, and thanks everybody for listening. The sooner you can optimize your marketing spend, the quicker you can start delivering clear, measurable value to Your Business. That's exactly where business GPS from. Proof analytics can help learn more at proof analytics DOT AI. You've been listening to accelerating value, where raw conversations about the journey to business impact help you weather the storm ahead. To make sure you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. Until next time,.

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