Accelerating Value
Accelerating Value

Episode · 10 months ago

How to Effectively Align Marketing & IT

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Why is it that IT & Marketing always seem to speak a different language?

It’s because they’re focusing on their process, not the outcome they need to achieve.

Solving the alignment problem starts with putting the customer first.

Today, I’m joined by Jason Galloway, Principal, and Bret Sanford, Managing Director of Marketing Consulting, at KPMG, where their extensive research into the problem has given them key insights that will have CMOs and CIOs finally speaking the same language.

In this episode, we discuss:

  • Why marketing and IT have trouble understanding one another and the common obstacles they face
  • Why putting the customer first is the best approach to solving the problem
  • How an agile model and clear leadership can lead to the best outcomes for the customer and your organization 

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Today, every budget approval is an investment deal. If you're a marketer, sales or business leader, you had to promise to deliver value and impact. Writing the wave to get there is hard enough. Finding your way through the storm is even harder. If you're looking for that path forward so that you don't wipe out, you've come to the right place. Let's get into the show. Hey, everybody, this is Mark Sus with accelerating value, your weekly podcast on everything you need to know about how to find value opportunities in your job and in your career inside your company, how to get people to invest in it, how to invest in it yourself, how to drive success, how to prove success. Those many of you have now been with us now for probably, yeah, I think we've been doing this about nine months and we are up to more than seventyzero regular listeners. So very exciting and we really appreciate your support and the support for the people that we bring on, because they are ruled. They're taking a lape out there. Right there. They're talking about their own struggles with creating value and what they've learned and how they think you could benefit from that. So today we have a monster for letter word as the guests. Right we have KPMG, Bret Sanford and Jason Galloway. Welcome, he markin pig be here. They have some really cool research that's out and it's part of a series and they'll probably elaborate on this, but it's about the intersections between marketing and various other parts of the business and the report that they have come out with first is between the the CMO and the CIO, or marketing and the I department, and they have some really, really interesting observations here and we're going to kind of take this inside of the context of the classic people, Process Technology kind of triangle, which is not equilateral. Right the the people part is always the longest leg of that triangle, and so I think we're just going to explore some of their findings and stitch it all together into what I think will be a really compelling first portrait of how does this actually work when you talk about them value creation and the partnership that they really need to have with the with their it departments. So, guys, let's let's let's jump to the first question here. So one of the most important things that jumped out at me and jumped out of a lot of other people about this report is that it really emphasizes the interlock, right, that if marketing kind of goes it alone, this is not going to work nearly as well is if marketing partners actively with other constituents. Right, in this case, te what's the best way? I mean, you're because you know you're thinking about this. Not only you have the broader perspective, and we're not here to talk about the other reports, right, but you have the broader perspective. What have you found is the best way to bring people together around this campfire and ultimately be singing Kumbai Ya with each other? But and yeah, mark, that's that's a good question. You know, as you were saying, we we this is the first in a multipart research where we're really have looking at very specifically how can a chief marking officer work with different parts and different functions of the business to really achieve great business results, right. And so the first part in this,...

...working closely at the semail council, is really focused on how does the CMO work closer with the CIO, when with the Ice Organization and their function? And you know, we explore a bunch of different parts in it. But I would say the one of the most critical aspects of the whole thing is how do you just how do you partner better right and you know, and it's not just partnership, as you were talking about side, just partner with ID, but how do I part with all of the functions? How do I try to be that connector of bringing everybody together to really try to frankly, make that customer experience better, to make marketing better overall, because that's we're trying to do right. And so how do you do that? And weeks force in different ways, but I would say partnership is probably one of the first most important things. But would you like that to that? I think it as Jason said, it's, you know, looking at all of the different organ parts of the organization. The issue is that marketing in a in a fully functioning marketing organization, marketing as the closest to the customer. So the rest of the organization needs to really partner with marketing to get close, to get that outside perspective, at outside in perspective, get closer to the customers so they can improve customer experience, which will improve. This is outcomes. So everyone in the sea suite needs to care about that and that's that's really where the imperative comes from. I think that's what it yeah, I was just gonna say me. I think that's actually what it's all about, right. I mean it's about outcomes. How do you know they really want to say, if you really want to be focused and say, okay, you know, how do you get everybody together? How do you get everybody aligned and be focused on them outcomes? Right, that's the most important thing. We talked about, you know, proper governance, and we talk about participation and getting people on board, and we talked about partnership and we talked about, you know, even they can proper measurement and governance of all of this. But all it's a really focus on outcomes at the end of the day, if that's where you're looking for and if you get everybody to rally around the same incomes and working towards the same goal, and that really is what is most beneficial. And that's where having that customer focus that that Jason was talking about is so important, because we and we all know this instinctively, of course, but will you will use it and marketing as the example, because that's the research that we're currently talking about. But Marketing's remit in the organization is fundamentally different than its remit within the organization. So they're so their goals are fundamentally different. Right. It is is meant to mitigate risk and marketing is meant to uncover opportunity, which sometimes is not about mitigating risk. So it's getting those can can come sometimes competing or differing outcomes, internal outcomes, to get to a single point of ability to sort of look at a problem perhaps in different ways, but with a fifth similar and singular outcome. Starting with the customer helps you do that, right, because you're not. I'm not starting by as it person over here. I have to mitigate risk. As marketing person, I have to have communications, I have to get out what problem are resolving for the customer. Now let's go backward from there. Yeah, I think that's a really great point. You know, that's the focus of everyone's, or should be the focus of everyone's, empathy, and then not enables them to have empathy for one another's position. And so what they have to accomplish within the ecosystem. I think one of the challenges that a lot of times is we're not. We don't have the conversations about what is it that we're trying to accomplish, and even then, you know, the people don't really sit on the tail. Hey, this is what I'm trying to complish, is what you're trying to complish, is what you're trying to accomplish, and really understand that, understand, frankly, even some of the overlap and where there's some natural conflicts of that, and actually have a real conversation. But okay, well, that's conflicts with what I'm trying to do. So how do we actually create a model of government, structure, whatever you want to call it? How do we create something that, when those challenges come up, it allows us to overcome that?...

Right, because there's always going to be natural conflicts. Right, as bright was saying, whether I'm I'm trying to mitigate risk in by the way, I'm trying to drive innovation. Right, a lot of organizations face that. Well, did we ever have a conversation about that's what we're trying to accomplish and, Hey, this is actually what we're going to use to help us get past this if it comes up? and Are we going to have conversations or frankly, or we just going to like, you know, be passive, aggressive, aggressive towards one another. And, frankly, the only person who loses in that is the is the client. Right. We are in a Webinarre recently and say when that comes up, who wins, and we actually I think my answer was, well, frankly, the customer loses. I don't know who wins, but the customer loses, right, because they're not willing another conversation and work towards the better outcome for your client, which is what you're trying to do your customers. Then you got a real challenge there. Ye, it's a pure victory, even if you win politically, it's you lose. Yeah, well, I'm Soloy and what the research showed us is that in fact, having that better relationship, so we have the empirical data that having a better relationship between marketing and it, between the CMO and the CIO, actually leads to better outcomes. It leads to more long term planning, it leads to a more strategic go to market, it leads to more innovation, it leads to all the things that are go that you're cee a folcus about that there, see, because of it, which is better outcomes in a better business. This is one of the first times of actually the you know, this idea of the CMO and the CIO need to get along. I mean right, I mean it's been right about for a long time, right. I mean this isn't necessarily new, but really one of the first times that it's been proven like empirically from the data to show not only like yeah, everybody again, maybe it's better, but like here's actually real business results of why you need to do that. And what we always say to the chief marking officer in the marketing function is like look, if you want to be viewed as a leader and you want to be viewed as maybe the because the you're that or you are that connection, as Brett was saying, to the customer. If you want to be looked at that transformational type leader in the person who drives the organization in the business, how you get along with your peers and do you speak the language of the C suite, which is dollars and sense? Frankly, at the end of the day, like that matters, right, and that matters a lot, and I think that's maybe one of the reasons why traditionally, the CMO role is one of the shortest lived roles in terms of how long the CMOS in their position, because some people don't necessarily get that right, and that's important to think about. And how do you get along with your peers work and frankly, speak the same languages them. And you know one of the so I spoke with a lot of it leaders, a lot being eight or nine in kind of what I would call the upper midtier and the enterprise. Yep, and one of the things that they struggle with is that they their value system from there. This is, I'm now from their perspective, right, what they care about, what they're worried about, all that kind of stuff is vastly different than what they hear coming out of amounts of marketers, and this is actually probably one of the biggest gaps that exists, right, the other one probably being between marketing and finance. Right, how do you mean? How would you like in really super tactical ways? Right, because you got to build this out within your team. Right. How do you how do you educate people about the other side of the fence, so to speak, and so they can begin to have that better conversation that true partnership, all in the context of the North Star, right, which is what's best, because, yeah, it's it is. You used a great word before, which is empathy. Understanding, the understanding what everyone's goal is and what everyone's piece within that goal is what's really important. Creating singular plans. So if...

...we create a single vision of what we want the experience to be for that customer. Depends on the business, sure and of course, but if we create a singular map of what we want that cut through customer experience to be and we go backwards from there, we can then fit the puzzle pieces in. Of Well, if we want that to be the end experience, this is what it needs to do and this is what marketing needs to do in this is what procurement needs to do, and everybody and compliance and everybody else, but also it then puts marketing and it on the save on a level playing field. You don't have the one being over the other. I could that's the other thing we see. And when you don't with organizations that don't necessarily have an effective relationship between those two constituents, you see either marketing drive in the train or I drive in the train and that's not actually what a very effective relationship between those two constituents is. It's both driving to a singular outcome. So starting to understand that and educate internally to that, which sometimes includes structure. It includes getting your are in marketings case, it includes getting your marketing people partnered with it folks so they start to speak the same language. Like Jason was saying, that's frequently what happens in a lot of the CMOS that I've worked with, where I've worked with them to try and improve this relationship. It is literally a different language, not only differing right, not only differing modalities and differing outcomes, but literally a different language. So there are structures, and Jason Use the word governance before there's there's governance in process that we can put in place that will help with that and that we'll get those folks at the same table, not speaking the same language, because they're not going to, but at least they can start to understand one another and why it has to know what market is doing and vice versa. I also think that there's just there's some natural conflict between marketing and it for a couple different reasons as well. If you think about it. The Marketing Organization a lot of how to have a database marketing group, right, and so they were there a lot more ID savvy than, say, the Finance Organization. Maybe right like that. Don't patch my finance friends. I'm sure there's plenty of people out there who are. But great, they like they had to be much more tech savvy, like look, good, back in the day you didn't have these marking automation systems and stuff like. Great, I have to get in. They have to write a sequel career or something against the database to pull it out. And I had to be a little, a bit more tech savvy, right, and so they're like great, well, I know it, I don't necessarily need it to go make some decisions. And then, especially back in the day, people were implementing all these RP systems, right, and you know as like okay, it's really good at seeing up in the EARP and and you know, and that's great and we're good at that. Well, marketings, that's there and says, well, I have all of this new technology out there. I think I don't remember the last count, but over eightzero different vendors who do marketing technology. And they're same like look, I need an ability to be much more innovative. I need to be able to change out my software quickly and do certain things and implement and and try new things because my frankly, my channels are always changing, right. I mean, like you think about new things coming up every single day with, you know, just even thing about last ten fifteen years, with with ticktock and with snapchat and all of these things, and new things are always hopping up. So I need new technology to be able to exploit that to reach my customers in new and different ways. So I you know, and it wasn't moving, tasted, they haven't moved fast enough traditionally to support the marketer and frankly, let's be honest, markers have a tendency to be oh, shiny object, I want that, here's another one, I want that, let me try it, and that's why I end up with twenty pieces of technology that do the same thin, which is, frankly, where I can help them. But that's where, I think, where there's some natural conflict and that they have those conversations and it, you know, and marketing say like well, this is what I need and...

...this is why I need it, and I say okay. Well, this is how we can support it. How can we think about it differently? And you were talking a little bit, for instance, of out different parts of the organization here. A good example of this, even is with percurement, where I had a cheapercurement officer for a very large financial services company reach out to me recently and said, Jason like, how I needing more innovative because my marketers actually need the ability to change out new vendors very differently than how we've done it before. And how do I support them? Right and and here, frankly, as a leader who is being very much on the forefront of how do I actually support my business in a different way? Right, and it's kind of the same thing here. How does an IT leader reach out to marketing say hey, I know, maybe I haven't been the best of supporting you. How can I do you know, how can I support you differently and help you achieve your goals? And a chief Barknoster, frankly, can reach out to it ten so you know, I know we haven't always had the best relationship. I know that I have had a tendency just go and buy new software to to support my business to do things. I'd like to work with you closer and better, right. I'd like to be able to have your support throughout the entire process, to have you participate because, let's be honest, to the head of it and the CIO, whatever it is, right, they have also access all kinds of data that the organization has a frankly, the marketing organization should be leveragine and if they leverage the full strength and power of the organization, you're going to get better results and you're going to have, over, a better all customer experience as well. And and the two things that you need to do in order to talk about and to do what Jason's talking about is measuring those outcomes. Right. So it and marketing get together. How do you measure the outcomes and how do you create singular plans and singular budgets? Guess what people go with the money is. How do you create a coalesced budget? That then you have to make people accountable for. That's where you'll start to see change. That's actually really key. They're even the research showed it didn't really matter who really held the budget. Actually it didn't. I didn't really matter, which is a surprising I think a lot to him. Frankly, side of tend kind of surprising to me. When they had a more very effective relationship, it didn't matter if I t had the budget or marketing have the budget, because they were partners along the way. There wasn't one end, one out, as Brett was saying. There was also this says Brett was just talking about this. They had a set of KPIS and not only did they have a much more robust set of API, they measured them more often and they actually came up with recommendations. It wasn't just so here's your cap, you know, you know what, here's your quarterly report or whatever it was. I here it is, but here's recommendations. And they agreed on the KPIS and I think you're going to see that not just with it, but you're going to see that throughout the organization where you having more robust set of Apis that you measure regularly, that you have recommendations against, you're going to end up with much better results. So what so that that there's a part of this that actually several of the people on both sides of this wanted me to ask you about, and that is the view about planning and budgeting. Right. So, for example, when I led the global marketing at honey aerospace, right, we had something called the strap, which was the five year plan, and we had the AOP, the annual operating plan, and so the two kind of worked together in a very disciplined way. It was very much like when a public company gets guidance, gives annual guidance and then every quarter they do, they updates, right, and kind of concept. One of the one of the challenges that that people keep running into here is that it's very, very comfortable with multi year planning and all this kind of stuff, right, and also the budgeting side, and the business is actually very comfortable with that as it applies to it as well. But marketers tend to be more short cycle, right, and they and the business tends to be more comfortable funding them on a shorter cycle. How do you kind of blend...

...this to these two things together, right, because now we're getting in, we're kind of getting out of like all people feel right, into more of the process piece of this, right, and kind of making the gears match up in the machine. Right. Interestingly, what we found when, when there was a very effective relationship between marketing and it. Those planning cycles actually because came more like eighteen months, not quarterly. I would also argue, having having been a CMO on point in my career, I would also argue that the it's a talent dog marketing is a tendency to have a short cycle, because that's the way the sea sweet thinks about marketing. They think about it transactionally, don't they don't have a clear set of Kpis that are long, that are more long term or a long tail, and they don't understand necessarily the long term implications of building that brand or building that strength within the market. So you the hence. So hence you have short planning cycles. Right, which came first? But what we did find is when there is a more effective relationship with it, those planning cycles get exponentially longer and more strategic. There is actually a strategic plan because, like you said, mark you it has a strategic plan, because I have to because an sap implementation takes two and a half years, so they have to have a longer term vision. When you have a closer relationship, marketing goes along for the ride in that regard. But also is then understanding what the implications of just to use that example, what the implications of that implementation are over the course of the implementation, not just the beginning of the end. Right. That's where marketing can help. I think you're I think you're right bread and I think it comes down to and I think you's a really great playing around. They plan that way because the CE sweet kind of thinks about it that way, but I would I would even argue, do they think about that way? Because that's what will marketing noise talks about, is, you know, the sand metrics and the metrics and the measurement. Yeah, exactly. They in the metrics and the measurements that they talked about a lot of times. And I go asking and talk about Kpis right, and a lot of frankly, a lot of my cmo friends will come and say, Hey, actually, can you go talk to my cfo, because when KPMG says this is the return that they may listen a little bit more than my agency or whatever, right, and like yeah, sure, hey, if it's good for us too. But but I think what we maybe do differently at KPMG, though, is we tend to when we go talk to the CFO, where we go talk to a CEO or CFO, we're speaking in terms of Roli, right, we're talking about things that matter to them. We're talking financial terms. We're not necessarily as talking about brand strength and some of these other things where CFO saying, how do I measure that? Right, like, because they're very, you know, very focused on that, as they should be. I don't might see if Bo to be focused on that, and the CEO, they're talking about this and they're talking about quarterly returns and they're talking to these safes of things. We're like, well, I don't understand how brand strength actually ties back to earnings per share, right, or what, you know, the metrics that they're focused on, and that's what really matters at the end of the day. So how do you actually start to I think if you have marketers who start to think and talk that way and do things differently, I think you'll actually see sweet and general will start to lean in a bit of a different direction. And also having that closer relationship to the to it will enable what Jason just talked about. Yeah, it will enable you to have a greater set of KPI. Is the big the biggest issue. While that I've seen, anyway, one of the biggest issues with how do I tie brand strengths to EPS? You can do it, but it requires multiple touchpoints, multiple Kpis. It's not one number, it's not just the same God dish. It's repression math, it's not correlation, it's exactly so, so it's it is enabling that. You're going to need the...

...technology to enable that and, guess what, you're going to need the data that it has. It's only in your best interest as the marketer to form those relationships because it's going to enable you to prove your to prove your business case more effectively. And it's a marketer, you don't, I mean, do you really want to be focus on the plumbing of pulling that together anyway? I mean, you know a lot of marketers say like, Oh, my job is so function I'm so mired in do just like more of execution type things. Right, we're project management where they want? I want to get back to the strategy, right. If I go to talk to a females are like, you know, I'm really enjoying a strategy part that's what I want to do. I don't want to we're about great use idee how they should be used. Right, maybe user spor function. Do you feel like that? This is this accounts for kind of the the the rise, particularly in the last two years, of REV OPS? Right, it's kind of letting marketing be creative, do what they do well, and there's a there's a group that are and a half in marketing and half in sales and half and finds it and they kind of bring it all together. The rise of REV OPS, the rise of design ops, those functions are by nature the to me, the rise of those functions prove that there's a need to create cross functional or Multi Disciplinary Collaboration, right, to create because it doesn't exist. So we create this devos function, to create the virtuous circle for software development, right, which is actually more like a figure eight really than than a circle. But yes, that that is that's the reason those things exist. I think. Yeah, we're trying to force that collaboration right, like in so many ways, but I think that's also why you've had so many you know, if you the role the team has been so interesting where some places has gone away, right, you think about some really big companies out there. It's good. It's gone away and, like all we're going to achieve growth officer instead or a chief customer officer, and then it's like, well, that didn't work, let's go back and put a another chief marking officer with different routables responsibilities. And you seen some of these companies that they've gone through these cycles and it's like you, you know, you're actually exactly on the same spout your word ten years ago, right like, and you keep changing it and you also actually then even see some cases I oh, we have a cheap marking officer, but by the way, it actually came up your finance right. I got to seen that actually even more often, where your cmo was a former CFO, because they're like, well, you know what the any themo we had, and I asked to ask the company recently. I asked them like, well, what was the receipt for that? Like I was just interested. Were they an else? And it's like because they, the CMOS that we've hired, just didn't get it all right, they didn't get what they were trying to do here and we had to think about things differently, and that's really interesting. We actually had prof we have a customer that in the cyber security space that went through the loss of the CMO and the head of OPS. Let's CEO said, you know what you're going to report to me for the next year, and I don't. I'm not going to try to like tell you how to market, but I am going to teach you how to talk my language. Right. Yeah, and and so that was a that was an interesting example what you're talking about. Yeah, really, absolutely. And then you could see the evolution. Oh yeah, yeah, they changeable because in they become much more operationally focused and they become much more metrics driven, right, and that's how the rest of the organization is, that their metrics driven, with scorecards in these things. And you know, I think, but I think the good thing is is marketed or trying to get there. It's just how do you change your mindset? How do you? You know, it's interesting. There's some research that came out and where it was, you know, what are the things that are important? Skill sets, right, and she and you know had the marketing were saying, no, financial analysis skills and some of these other things are important, and they're like yeah, it's great, we need it. What are you hiring for? And it was it was I don't remember the exact numbers, but it was like the exact opposite of how many actually you're hiring for those skills, right, like, Oh, what are you doing the train? Well, we're not really doing in the train, but you really Janeedom. Right. So how do you start to kind of...

...change things and be a little bit more operationally focus, financially focused and driven as well? Have you? Have you found in your research that there is a hierarchy of important stuff? So one of the one of the things that I also got heard a lot here is that today, you know, decisionmaking is so matrix a lot of organizations that it paralyzes the final the ability to get to a decision. Yep, right, right, and and I had to see Mo say if I if I treat everybody's opinion the same, I'm in grid law and well, interestingly, and and I've done a lot of work in this area. That is where Jason and I have this discussion, I'm calling an argument, it's a discussion, discussion regularly. That is where an agile framework, as opposed to a matrix framework, comes in handy, because you have somebody, you got to have somebody right driving the bus. The person who's driving the bus, the person responsible is very clear who it is. That may not always be the same person, right, because depending on what you're trying to accomplish, depending on what the project is, you put the right person in charge. Then you get the right people on the team. But we're always clear about who the person in charges. And that's where a Matrix do organ is Zan falls down a little bit because, like you said, it just ends up becoming analysis, paralysis by analysis, right and nobody, and it's all about Luska version, right, right, exactly? I because I don't know body agrees that. Finally, and then it fails, we're all, you know, no one's gonna blame anybody exactly. I don't want to be the one with my name on that decision. Whereas, whereas, when you look at what problems we have to solve for the customer, now, what are the what are the activities? What are the outcomes we need to do that? What are the activities that we need to engage in to get those outcomes? What are the projects that we need to undergo in order to create those activities? That's that kind of a hierarchy, to use your word. Then you can be clear about who's in charge right, if this is a let's look, I'm going to mix up up now. But if we are talking about a let's look at this particular part of the MARTEX Stack, dig into the plumbing, to use Jason's word, and figure out what needs to actually change, or how do we we're only using twenty percent of sales force. Actually had a client one say to me, Oh, we spend millions of dollars yer on sales force, we use twenty percent of it. Okay, so how are we going to fix that? Guess in the IT person and it t person should probably be the one in charge of that project, which you want someone in marketing, someone in sales enablement to be on that team to be able to say, well, actually, this is the part of sales force I use, this is the part I need to see what I'm saying. You have the one via. Definitely have the one person saying it's it. I'll take it all into consideration, but I'm the one in charge of this at the end of the day. So when you kind of dovetail this research with probably other you know knowledge that you have right m you find that that it is funded and staffed at an appropriate level to give marketing, or for anyone else for that better, the response time that they need. Well, that's the interesting thing. Right, marketing will always say that they're understaffed. It stay, they're under staff right, everybody's always understand. That's classic deal, though, right. I mean right, and for your it implementation, right, exactly. But the issue is the reason why you get the talk to the hand. I can't get to that for six weeks. You know kind of thing is because marketing is using it as an order taker. And if you're not using it as an order taker and you're sitting down in these squads and saying, okay, what do we need to do? We need to get there. Okay, how are we going to get there? We're going to do this, this and this. Okay, who's going to do this? Who's going to do that? WHO's in charge of this? WHO's in charge that? God, okay,...

...there's a governance mot that's a process and there's a governance model, and then you can start to push forward and everybody knows what the outcome needs to be, what the timeline needs to be. We've all agreed to it and you're not throwing it over the wall or right. That's where you get into the like I can't get to that for six week. is you've figured it at marketings, figured it all out, and then they throw it over the wall to it. or I t built the system and then they threw it over the wall to marketing and said you go figure out what you want to do with it. That's where you have those yeah, no, I really agree. I mean you know that that was kind of a perennial issue at Honeywell and one of the things I finally said in to my guys, as I said, look, if they've been involved in it from the beginning and understand it, they're behind it and they still are. Telling you your time Slot for implementation will be nine months from now. Right, okay, then we need to probably adjust the actual, you know, day to the Po but we also need to do use that time to do all the prep work in the world that we can do from our side exactly. And also, okay, so it's nine months. How can we to your point, how can we use that nine months? But also, what is that? What does that do to our strategy and how can we adjust our strategy accordingly so that we're realistic in what we expect manage everyone's expectations, but also that we're being choiceful and deliberate about how we're accomplishing these things. And I think you know this is also you were talking about it in the context of REV OPS. Right. But but also one of the things that I see over and over again is that US, the ability to specialize is super important and it will always be important. But if you don't have the t shaped piece right, if you don't know just enough about all these other pieces right to have the intelligent conversation, even if it's just contextually right, you're gonna you're going to you're going to struggle. Well, it's interesting. You just used absolutely the right word, which is context. Right, and it's not only it. I think the two places I've seen it with clients most, where lack of context leads to people talking past one another, is it? And with compliant compliances and legal right, right, right. I mean I was in financial services for I was in financial services for a long time and if you didn't talk to Blians language, you got problems. Right, yeah, so that those are the two places. So, but what I found was, and I just am not going to lie to you, discovered this by trial and error and probably beat my head against the all a little bit. But if I gave those folks enough context about what we were trying to accomplish, again, start with the end of mine, right. So what do we need to accomplish for the client, for the customer? Now let's work backward. And how are we all going to work together? Now everyone has the context, and now compliance is still going to do what compliance does, but they're going to understand how you're utilizing this and what you want to accomplish. And guess what, they'll come along with you and then they won't just say no, they'll say, well, you can't do that, but you could do it this way and now, as Jason said before, they'll offer up those kinds of solutions as opposed to just shutting it down. Same with IDA. Is that that will happen. I hope everybody really heard that. I think that's like a huge takeaway from this particular conversation. You know, you do not create value by yourself. No, and it's not the genius of your initial idea that you want to have validated. It's really this is the if you want to use the word genius, right. That my that your...

...genius should be identifying the problem, yes, right, exactly, and then bringing everybody in and saying, okay, guys, we got this problem or we have this opportunity. How do we want to capitalize on it? And we understand that. You know, marketing is a bunch of risk takers and the compliance people basically exists to make sure that no risks are taking exactly exactly firstigation. And so you know, understanding that no one's going to get a hundred percent of what they want on this deal. Right, let's let's let's think creatively exactly and let's solve the problem together, understanding that we all have to do our job. We all have a job to do in the end. It right, but let's if we, if we look at if we look at it together, we can solve it to everyone's benefit. And that Jason's point. That helps the client in the end, it helps the customer in the end. It makes right. Know, one of the things actually that I thought of as I was listening to you is that this is not unlike the premise behind a BMW base markets. No, it's not at all right, and so your because you're trying to a grade ADM program is focused in the bottom part of the funnel and it's all about helping all the stakeholders right, not only receive their specific message that you want them to hear, but better understand each other. You're building consensus on that side of the wall, right, and that's really what this is. So all you know marketers and this deal, right. I mean just think about all this in the context of a mum. Well, it's interesting you say that about ABM, because the big shift that we're seeing in ABM is walking away from a campaign focus totally toward a customer focus, toward a cup, toward us, a problem solution focus, not a campaign focus, which, at the way I view it in my head, is a push pole or a poll V rather than a push right, good old fashioned campaign focused. ABM was on pushing the stuff out. I'll get stuff back right, whereas when you start thinking about how do I sell what a customer focus, a go to customer focus. Now I figure out the customer needs and I can pull them along and say I've got these great solutions for you, and that's where where ABM is really it was really changing. Yeah, the kind of very much akin to that is, you know, in say ten years ago or eight years ago, Whenever Adum really kind of got gone, it was very persona based yes, and so one of the interesting things that came out of the analytics at that time, and you still see it occasionally they is they were at these ABM programs were actually slowing average deal velocity. HMM, as they were reinforcing the vulcanized mentality between all the stakeholders. Interesting am and it was a totally unintentional obviously right on the part of markers, right, but when they started realizing that we're over rotating on that which they want to hear on, kind of like their prejudices and such, well, it's not, yeah, not, just similar to what we see happening in social media, right, and it was actually slowing it up and inhibiting a lot of things. So it just goes to show you that the technology and the process amplify, yeah, human behavior, absolutely amplify what what is already existing, but it speeds it up and creates a one plus one equals three and it just starts the lights, as it say, the snowball starts rolling down the hill a lot faster, which is can be a good thing if you deploy it. One last question, because this also really came up a lot and you guys touched on it in your report, was data integration, HMM, which is a really thorny thing. It can be you very and even if you've got the most...

...wonderful day to lake in the world right still drown in it. Yeah, on the height, the hygiene, which is problem. Right, the search is usually a problem, and particularly when you also think about the fact that all data, by the way, don't I don't want anyone to misunderstand this. Common data is really super important, but data by itself is always about to past. Yep, exactly right, though. How do you guys think of how are you advising your clients right now in this area? We can given the fact that maybe marketers are more interested in the generation of data than what happens next. Well, the first thing is, and I say this to folks all the time who were like, well, we have MPs, that's nice, net promoter score, but that's nice. It's one day to point and it's backward facing. Really, if that would is that what you're underpinning the entire marketing of this this, this one, I don't know about that. Good. It's one data point, but so a data lake and and and getting what it again. What is the outcome that the marketer wants? What is the outcome that the business should want? And that's a single view of the customer, right, particularly given what we are seeing is customers are drive in the train. Customers are are telling companies how they want to be interacted with, where, when, why they want to be interacted with and they expect a certain personalized experience. I'm giving you a lot of data. You should know something about me. Don't make me give you your my address again. You know that sort of a thing. So having that single view of the customer is going to become more and more important. And of course, as we know, and business is like financial services and healthcare, that gets tricky. But there are ways to be able to do that. But again, that gets back to the research that that we are talking about, which is why it's so incompetent upon marketing and it to work together so that we can decide what data exists. I mean, I've talked to CMOS who literally don't know what data exist within the Organ Large Organization. They know what data they control, but there's there a whole other areas of the organization that they don't rest of. It is the is the could is the context for their data exactly. So that's why I say God, that's why I mentioned in past is like that's a sing all data point. Like you have a bunch of single data points. How are we going to connect the dots between that data to create insight? That actually drives your business forward and it is getting all of these folks at the table to be able to say, well, what that data point tells me is that we need that, we need to connect it to this data point over here. Insights are, you know, in the same way a bunch of tactics don't make up a strategy. It's the web of tactics that make up to strategy. It's the same thing with data and insight. A bunch of data points don't make up insights. You take that data, you connect the dots between them. That's really what marketing is. It's a DOC connecting exercise. Then you get insight, then you can move the business forward. Now you know, one of the I think one of the things too that has really amp this up for a lot of people is the events of the last a eighteen to twenty months, yes, right. So, the velocity and the volatility of change. Yes, fact, the past is no longer reliably prolog right. And so, you know, like one of the think one of the ways that we see this is the resurgence in the level of interest in something that's been around for a long time called marketing mix modeling, which is really just applied progression analytics, right, analysis, right, but it's substantially modernized today, right, and it gives you that view to the future that you can gut check, right, and so that that's it's an interesting you know, the a because...

...data you could and then to feed that you have to have some data integration. Absolutely, so it I think, you know, honestly, I think maybe one of the biggest challenges is that data integration is not exactly the most fun thing in the world. It's not the sexiest thing in the world, but the outcome is right and again, that that single view of the customers are expecting it. And I don't care be to BBC, doesn't matter. Customers you are customers are expecting you to know what they're what their expectations are, how they want to be talked to, when, where and why they want to be talked to and they expect you to know this seamlessly. So it is really all about getting that single view through this data integration in order to make the right get the right messages at the right time, but also take the right actions at the right fantastic some up there that because that you know, if you if you can't build the consensus deliver the value right the whole thing, you're not going to there's not going to be anything there to operationalize. You're not bill know. Yeah, and and you quite honestly back to the CFO, you're not maximizing any of your investments. You're it investments you're marking to get this is any of it? You're not maximizing any of it. So that, that to me, is the is the clarion call for why the CFO should care about this. Brett, thank you so much in a terrific podcast, guys. I hope you know. So when we post it there's, as always, there's going to be a lot of questions underneath and we'll tag breat so and Jason and so they'll be able to, if they want to, to kind of get in the mix and we will happily answer any questions that you're that you're listeners come up with us. So, guys, thank you so much. We will be back next week. The sooner you can optimize your marketing spend, the quicker you can start delivering clear, measurable value to Your Business. That's exactly where business GPS from. Proof analytics can help. Learn more at proof analytics DOT AI. You've been listening to accelerating value. We're raw conversations about the journey to business impact. Help you weather the storm ahead. To make sure you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. Until next time, you.

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